From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 16210 invoked from network); 6 May 2022 14:24:33 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 6 May 2022 14:24:33 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 086E59CF0B; Sat, 7 May 2022 00:24:32 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5E379CEEF; Sat, 7 May 2022 00:21:46 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ieee.org header.i=@ieee.org header.b="emTd9FTP"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id CBFF19CEEF; Sat, 7 May 2022 00:21:38 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lj1-f172.google.com (mail-lj1-f172.google.com [209.85.208.172]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C73269CEEE for ; Sat, 7 May 2022 00:21:34 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lj1-f172.google.com with SMTP id 4so9441827ljw.11 for ; Fri, 06 May 2022 07:21:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ieee.org; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=z59OgMNgAjAGbRQyHF1LhPKR3fRNCJUx0n9eeDiPsBY=; b=emTd9FTPil9cxqqevM2l+jlgE2jmk7tyBIrbW59jo19NqBhYDM128gVDmxW4ebeSQr QlAOiFX/vA3OtMayFraHwyAD6OTGvLz6PRPgvHoCmuRIT9y6ekIyZ6ByRk4qSjYrHueR b1DEi4UjqqhJ05zDBaEUiRFBI7/Fs9r5y/myU= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=z59OgMNgAjAGbRQyHF1LhPKR3fRNCJUx0n9eeDiPsBY=; b=sAneitpMGCQUgPRpZXcEabHryChPR+11MK93SpQ1Ipf/rhTrQIoRxCGf2yeblYVm4R WQiVS4sWg7m2eLkpoxnLd6WNhOCPw1WQ+4t+x9C6d362MIIbkx2F4MTx/6Gh+SkA8D/C cb2mNlqi39VT011sDqeHWJNNI0AEYcVzFv4IFOi7CSEezdBOTAg8S0fbGp+mw/HTJJXU ZiUhb4BShRphk41xchFGIWX2f/aVGa6coNAXmOryvUj9sVe3JDH/8NHtiMZ96dbACbce P+/uSVrgn8wL8xoxJ4lrLItPY3ZJVCMnIxTiqQTy3BXyt+5whEU6kxcpyZdpBiSnhKY4 5Xag== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532OFASNqZH3ZQ+WIZq6QBRhzAdPXzjh0IFoujlCZlx4tO54heLm Z89pcB2Igz0Z9qSUN06wRiaZqtZJ7R3qfh7xjtH3iyncbnfOLw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxcLzhawXlVQ8otlZNB43Lcv6g6Yz1dXglLL2zoS0uquKnPUGzfSfh5e0CG8YPIzI2yVgJSWqb7R9rrVihv7No= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9617:0:b0:250:896e:3d25 with SMTP id v23-20020a2e9617000000b00250896e3d25mr2157716ljh.526.1651846892798; Fri, 06 May 2022 07:21:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202205060735.2467Z7Rc032121@freefriends.org> <6493122A-B704-4039-8F4C-8C6FEAEC5220@ronnatalie.com> In-Reply-To: <6493122A-B704-4039-8F4C-8C6FEAEC5220@ronnatalie.com> Date: Fri, 6 May 2022 07:21:21 -0700 Message-ID: To: Ron Natalie Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000045370005de589326" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Alternative Implementation Proposal for Unix/370 (BTL, 1979) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , From: Tom Lyon via TUHS Reply-To: Tom Lyon Cc: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000045370005de589326 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Let's not mix whales and turkeys. TSS was IBM's attempted answer to Multics - built specifically for time-sharing, way too complex, and suffering from second-system syndrome. It never reached product status, but there were a few icustomer nstallations. Bell Labs Indian Hill was one - so that's why TSS was the base of their UNIX port. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TSS_(operating_system) TSO was the Time-Sharing Option - by far the most common time-sharing environment for IBM, since it was an add-on to their mainstream OS family - MFT, MVT, MVS, etc. I had the joy(?) of using TSO for my 3 summers with the El Paso Natural Gas company. TSO is the system that earned the 'dead whale down a beach' line from Steve Johnson; it was truly awful. I'm sure there was some TSO somewhere in BTL as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Sharing_Option The most sane time-sharing choice, and also the best for OS development, was VM/CMS. But for most of its life, IBM was trying to kill VM in favor of the others. AFAIK, there was no VM installation in BTL. See Melinda Varian's wonderful history of VM. http://www.leeandmelindavarian.com/Melinda/neuvm.pdf On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 1:08 AM Ron Natalie wrote: > They liked kicking a dead whale down the beach. > > > On May 6, 2022, at 09:39, arnold@skeeve.com wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFTom Lyon via TUHS wrote: > > > >> I was (re?)introduced to Chuck Haley recently and discovered he had a > copy > >> of a Bell Labs memo from himself, London, Maranzaro, and Ritchie. The= y > >> suggest that the path pursued to get UNIX running in/under TSS/370 was > the > >> hard way to go. > >> > >> Enjoy: > >> > http://charles.the-haleys.org/papers/Alternate_Implementation_Proposal_fo= r_Unix370.pdf > >> > >> > >> -- > >> - Tom > > > > So, why, given the letter from these folks, including DMR, did they go > > ahead and use the TSS solution anyway? > > > > Just wondering. > > > > Arnold > > --=20 - Tom --00000000000045370005de589326 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Let= 's not mix whales and turkeys.

TSS was IBM's attempted answer to Multics - built specifical= ly for time-sharing, way too complex, and suffering from second-system synd= rome.=C2=A0 It never reached product status, but there were a few icustomer= nstallations. Bell Labs Indian Hill was one - so that's why TSS was th= e base of their UNIX port.=C2=A0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TSS_(operating_system)=

=
TSO was the Time-Sha= ring Option - by far the most common time-sharing environment for IBM, sinc= e it was an add-on to their mainstream OS family - MFT, MVT, MVS, etc.=C2= =A0 I had the joy(?) of using TSO for my 3 summers with=C2=A0 the El Paso N= atural Gas company.=C2=A0 TSO is the system that earned the 'dead whale= down a beach' line from Steve Johnson; it was truly=C2=A0awful.=C2=A0 = I'm sure there was some TSO somewhere in BTL as well.=C2=A0 https://en.wikipedia.org= /wiki/Time_Sharing_Option

The most sane time-sharing choice, and also the best for OS developmen= t, was VM/CMS.=C2=A0 But for most of its life, IBM was trying to kill VM in= favor of the others.=C2=A0 AFAIK, there was no VM installation in BTL.=C2= =A0 See Melinda Varian's wonderful history of VM.=C2=A0http://www.leeandmelindava= rian.com/Melinda/neuvm.pdf

On Fri, May 6, 2022 at 1:08 AM Ron Nata= lie <ron@ronnatalie.com> wr= ote:
They liked = kicking a dead whale down the beach.=C2=A0

> On May 6, 2022, at 09:39, arnold@skeeve.com wrote:
>
> =EF=BB=BFTom Lyon via TUHS <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:
>
>> I was (re?)introduced to Chuck Haley recently and discovered he ha= d a copy
>> of a Bell Labs memo from himself, London, Maranzaro, and Ritchie.= =C2=A0 They
>> suggest that the path pursued to get UNIX running in/under TSS/370= was the
>> hard way to go.
>>
>> Enjoy:
>> http:= //charles.the-haleys.org/papers/Alternate_Implementation_Proposal_for_Unix3= 70.pdf
>>
>>
>> --
>> - Tom
>
> So, why, given the letter from these folks, including DMR, did they go=
> ahead and use the TSS solution anyway?
>
> Just wondering.
>
> Arnold



--
- Tom
--00000000000045370005de589326--