From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 47c0749f for ; Sat, 5 Jan 2019 14:16:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 48BE3A203F; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 00:16:57 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A692CA1C5C; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 00:15:48 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="ZcmUo83K"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 3DCADA1C5C; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 00:15:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-lj1-f179.google.com (mail-lj1-f179.google.com [209.85.208.179]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C09C2A1C50 for ; Sun, 6 Jan 2019 00:15:42 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-lj1-f179.google.com with SMTP id t9-v6so34664745ljh.6 for ; Sat, 05 Jan 2019 06:15:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Q/L5zm2lB3dX74IK7HVOSA6z+P/jm5K0nrXTj8+U3wM=; b=ZcmUo83Kmrv2xak7a3w+oO2tURMlq2HX+RzaFadg7h3+MNvV9VrIjoPpNZs8BeY5TC pK3GiuOz8FrIJyhbINO3XxTujZCRC9mphCgZs+++0XUG0/hmPpl3RkaruOGpZGhy/Z6W HLYecAlmd49RgW+0tXd7RYlYJnyNWhGxXcnWRquh25RzaHESw0MTs8v/ziOOABsT8kaI kxu73jwdXHQnM1YznX0sBasrEfPbjdSq2DKFdaVIW71bGgnmfCqQonM6o4RQ/1C+tkuh CXsS7QPmJTWGGKMCAI/oghm+UH9A1XDR/e3K1ADJypjMZ/bd4oIc5Y9BiBnj67sOQN/e /D3A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Q/L5zm2lB3dX74IK7HVOSA6z+P/jm5K0nrXTj8+U3wM=; b=Ejc2gvVRy7aC5kxU6zkXRAqqW81zhsEcIXdZc9s92I2SX4AoWgJqGEzIbb00ylGiVH 1I4KgqXRY0DTrRTX/X0cT8rV4uiKUhktGcu3COjtjD0LHfZFusCpM8aNbvZ9cbOQtGRC KD1z4iy+qgk9z9T5VEP/PRX2YL82ps46zgp0S3NPov3ivJCZaWfDSdYK7Zbp9YQE2+s0 L0VcdukT/R/kXloFN3wreCNYy3wtznYCoqdO7spmzbYLLMbhLS1Ro5GVemDLIE+gyo3r 4WkePEwKgMsjoFAvIFay321kbWXjKivaE1WxDqnx+UsnRBThR5aRmbsN0zNS/MThnG/C LKfw== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukfonmZhWRlHu47kYmapn9EIP6r1d6KCrdV2FGdFulE7TWp/mQ53 AapE6tui+QVl3yhHla2AAYG9P/zosOhXBBwepj0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN5Iif1svTpj7JLb9ykU+R4TRRluw0527WUgYDGGbSl7h/sJ6FN58W3ar6fZGuzR300nvSJ11REOKqlOgFV3EKQ= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8446:: with SMTP id u6-v6mr34665643ljh.74.1546697740735; Sat, 05 Jan 2019 06:15:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a2e:3a11:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sat, 5 Jan 2019 06:15:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201901050226.x052QigU089781@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU> References: <201901050226.x052QigU089781@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU> From: Paul Winalski Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 09:15:39 -0500 Message-ID: To: Doug McIlroy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Isaacson v Unix X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: tuhs@tuhs.org Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On 1/4/19, Doug McIlroy wrote: > > In the case of Steve Jobs, Isaacson tells not just that the Alto system > from Xerox inspired him, but also who its star creators were: Lampson, > Thacker and Kay. But then he stomps on them: "Once again, the greatest > innovation would come not from the people who created the breakthroughs, > but from the people who applied them usefully." While he very describes > innovation as a continuum from invention through engineering to marketing, > he seems to be more impressed by the later stages. I would argue that Isaacson does have a point here. After Lampson left Xerox PARC he set up a similar outfit at Digital'--the Western Research Lab (WRL). They did a lot of interesting work in the area of software development tools. I was working in the software tools engineering group at the time, and we would have loved to take WRL's work and to incorporate it in our products. But we couldn't. Why? Because they wrote everything in Modula 3, and we were using BLISS. It was too expensive and time-consuming to do the translation. If they had worked in BLISS, we could have just taken their code and run with it. From my perspective it looked as though they were deliberately setting up barriers to prevent us from sullying their research by actually turning it into useful products. In one memo to DEC's engineering staff, Gordon Bell proposed a "Xerox PARC" award to the R&D project that advanced the state-of-the-art the most while simultaneously advancing DEC's bottom line the least. Yes, PARC invented the modern windows-based GUI, but, as with so many PARC innovations, Xerox did nothing with it. Based on how the PARC alumni at WRL behaved at DEC,I would argue that this was the fault of PARC as much as of Xerox management. All that being said, I don't think this argument applies in any way to Bell Labs and Unix. Unix was "applied usefully" long before Stallman and Torvalds came along. Not crediting its inventors is inexcusable. -Paul W.