From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id c4468d24 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 16:09:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 74BB49BD56; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 02:09:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B8B49478F; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 02:09:39 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="cW6kdfnq"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id C6AE19478F; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 02:09:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f45.google.com (mail-vs1-f45.google.com [209.85.217.45]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4618E9478D for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 02:09:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f45.google.com with SMTP id d3so33293vsr.1 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 09:09:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=BwFXFnIRl41XJob5TVNngDydSPKUfviLFdjMlI0fuOI=; b=cW6kdfnqBCUyJ/f3Nq2R6IC5C0wDSndGB8xjwgQcjCibhEcqH+qegn+4haxWtu8Rap 0H0bfpe/i9W4dOvNiJX+a2YlqQ6m7JKSQUTB9mWqBKd2aGc2Qhr7KCyIsoF4btFwxwmg KpPMm7pwdSuw2YX4hAG0eIfIasriNSOInYuHc6NB6UCiI4LRp6wKMmJICgOMTtEx4eXJ w8mZkDJlt31k+FFlDVWy29UFoVao1kf/csrQUflc9HJ0zyS9Mniq72wxuRhLLyjGMNm7 Z8hAPZGhOs4Efj+qciLhEosZ8DoeenhQJud0SInJhsQduTp2L9v2m8x6ap8oedTRojCi c7bg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=BwFXFnIRl41XJob5TVNngDydSPKUfviLFdjMlI0fuOI=; b=WBczNwxpF3KPAdIwiXnWapAzTVPuiYOJQmoib6peOQdLYW6U24xqZhm0FR735+/Dty r/r4bX26oCfGjvI5rpNmA1K5BAF8uv2raZKxY8yPbvFmbydDE7BKirWDkz5Sa3JyUCUk 3vFSHDCvG/K7T6mbdAkVfxYdtomE8IFPGr0+llVtFes/kmTRvqnTuupx5K85OhkQ5MFS iZYLHNxWxr/YvmWT2E5pilPM54vkevRC7Hs4Uqku0KarEdBl7SIhc3QbWVTnhYAVb7uW FClOEZSvN5YPGbnkIVRhHoPlzKYDJ17KLErPcEEyctF1+lLnHXuk8/g9zcnPla/M5x6x 7Zog== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUFY38cSx0TvelV5Z4+SS/G8M2FCK5zMwV9dQ1vIvjp0/kSnWef g7klGhh6lFq608dQBv8d/gVP06MXxm3xxizqEQs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxToCy7rTfrRL2JqfL66joyZU9XURBoEUEjvW3KnOxIIK+F3C5rsjmfjvz0zk2yjRPSP32opBIm81jXqoXH5u8= X-Received: by 2002:a67:1287:: with SMTP id 129mr324302vss.186.1568650176227; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 09:09:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:ab0:13b3:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 09:09:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201909132024.x8DKObEP013266@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <463d5cc4-9bef-9ac3-a680-a5161d664dc1@aueb.gr> <20190913221345.GA16129@minnie.tuhs.org> <20190914020240.GO2046@mcvoy.com> <20190914024433.GA19193@minnie.tuhs.org> <2e84c4d0-5239-b223-856d-00aacf8d3028@andrewnesbit.org> <201909150654.x8F6sChG021185@freefriends.org> <201909160552.x8G5qBYK025195@freefriends.org> <7wd0g0o2a0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> From: Paul Winalski Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 12:09:35 -0400 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: [TUHS] earliest Unix roff X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" On 9/16/19, Clem Cole wrote: > On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 8:26 AM Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > > What irks me is the blatant force-feeding of any system to the users, be it > ITS, UNIX or Windows into another. It's ok to offer an alternative > interface, but when the system has a mechanism, your tools need to be > *socially > compliant* with it, not try to make 'those users become like me.' > Frankly, that is a pretty arrogant behavior. Yes, I know the argument is > two fold. GNU is not UNIX and we wrote it (he who has the gold, gets to > rule). Amen to that! As the old saying goes, "when in Rome, do as the Romans do". On UNIX, tools are expected to send output to stdout. On Windows, users expect text selection and ^C/^V copy-and-paste to work. On VMS, you use the CLI interface to parse the command line. And so on. The principle of least astonishment should always be foremost in user interaction design. > BTW: If it makes you feel better, I've been fighting this attitude at a > number of places, particularly Intel, for years. For instance, our dev > tools folks wrote their own Installer 'because it was easier for them and > they could use it everywhere'). That's a no-no. If you have Windows > product, you must use Microsoft's installer, if you have a Mac, you use > what Apple gives you, if you have VMS, you used the (wretched) setld, or in > this case, for Linux its rpm/yum et al.; etc. But they had their own > 'installer group' and it was easier for >>them<< than for the users. I used to work in that organization. The installer situation is one of the worst cases of not-invented-here syndrome that I've ever seen. Or maybe it was just empire building by some ambitious manager. The "it's easier for us and we can use it everywhere" argument is pure BS. Any savings that they got from having the a common code base for the installer was wiped out by all the extra development effort needed to track the release-to-release changes that the various platforms made to their software deployment setup. Their installer was always a step or two behind the curve, late in supporting new platform features, and full of subtle bugs and mis-implemented edge conditions. It wasn't really "easier for them" in the long run after all. It was a maintenance nightmare. -Paul W.