From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 24748 invoked from network); 13 Mar 2023 21:00:35 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 13 Mar 2023 21:00:35 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8748F41389; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 07:00:31 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pf1-x42e.google.com (mail-pf1-x42e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::42e]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F11504130D for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 07:00:23 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pf1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id c10so8446070pfv.13 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 14:00:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1678741223; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:references:in-reply-to :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=jSHBphRDsB6ZvpCfOMOI5Jht9UwqrsjfWlXlgmySHsc=; b=Tn7BKvIvI5zR4DIyT3v6/GmnGiC3hdpC2yrxgva92VgD0LUMfEgosCb1NJjEYvJbxY PPAnTWficOJho6g7ccRxer8WokgtVVUQ5poUMOP/DA+7hYRp9t/mPCCBWDvHIGm7BAri 5RdISlAp0V6/+Zf7P+/ZFkrYAjPiz2QR8jNg44oyF3PF/pwRU8AbDv4s3BgBkbuG0VYH o05ljbQkImTXLOfgpXLxbkKtZfYq19xScXYByA6F2V6ZY8hGfvDSaQp/KTX0v8MA4SFf fD5ymf+7MHXaeEyz+7hZDYR2XnwJYzknV7IpNeLVew49uLbpUqaAJv+HHVJzDf+BYlYe bFIQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678741223; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:references:in-reply-to :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=jSHBphRDsB6ZvpCfOMOI5Jht9UwqrsjfWlXlgmySHsc=; b=Mz+eC/53H7Jg/5wwgg6hVeEJpYq0SZDBUsPXXECqcCsCKsFnJ7TDexpg9C+kBphGoo W1ZJoZPyobroccXGoWKudeagtIppUvj1K4O0xV7e3IkOVzVO8Cl99n1TC6e50qGetT55 Ilivv6Iaully95kdMnceINQgA7ijlAMqoGI3mlB0pmCactvkmH5PXzMh8CI4GY/V/VLM 3w+EWA1FPDI4pTlhPurAQd5pqCYL8mvSlilQoXa1xwf6zCLfCTEmunnrng1yiz1W5MYi sXgF+JMJSOAOSu4kpC/AKpFgYLEbhrEbP0Z9btEELhutygxBVAKvvAT3z1cr9psecsrB ODrw== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKWpCBtkZkqkG+3hEGUtJPZH/RheFu//T/zNx4CLF0bRVRd7L1bq txE3HXs1QleZ/wj7RyHFnA7zdly0Pp+/dKLIfMo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set82GHFgu+02hdnT1STD2HmcrfjWVb+JIE2ROe4+Qd8ouH77IB9T9+OFTQ81YRUvYXBhEu/Feb1WI0PV0LYx14A= X-Received: by 2002:a62:1b07:0:b0:622:65eb:f6c6 with SMTP id b7-20020a621b07000000b0062265ebf6c6mr2805980pfb.1.1678741223380; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 14:00:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6a10:ed0c:b0:3bc:b7f6:895e with HTTP; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 14:00:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20230310113708.AD55518C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> From: Paul Winalski Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 17:00:22 -0400 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Message-ID-Hash: VQEHDKI4E2QNI2L7S734UUYXXA7DMRMU X-Message-ID-Hash: VQEHDKI4E2QNI2L7S734UUYXXA7DMRMU X-MailFrom: paul.winalski@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Alejandro Colomar , TUHS X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: [TUHS]: C dialects (was: I can't drive 55: "GOTO considered harmful" 55th anniversary) List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On 3/13/23, Clem Cole wrote: > > Frankly, I'd probably rather see ISO drop a bunch of the stuff they are now > requiring and fall back at least to K&R2 -- keep it simple. I agree. Every language has toxic features--things that seemed like good ideas at the time but turn out to have been mistakes when they're better understood. Every good programming shop has its rules concerning certain language features or practices that are not allowed in the code, usually for safety or maintainability reasons. Dropping toxic features from a language does happen at standards committees, but it's rare. The best case I know of where this happened was when the international standard for PL/I came out. They started with IBM PL/I but then dropped a bunch of features that were either obsolete (e.g., sterling pictures) or downright dangerous (e.g., the DEFAULT statement). On the other side of the spectrum you have the BASIC standards committee. BASIC has always had to live down a reputation that it's a "toy language" not suitable for "serious programming". The standards committee seems to have suffered from an inferiority complex, and it seemed from my perspective that as fast as the PL/I committee chucked out toxic language, the BASIC committee adopted them. The result is a bloated, grotesque monstrosity that little resembles the simple, clean Dartmouth BASIC 6 that was the first programming language I learned (from the DTSS TEACH command). -Paul W.