From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FROM,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 23124 invoked from network); 13 Mar 2023 20:48:16 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 13 Mar 2023 20:48:16 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB83041359; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 06:48:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-pg1-x52a.google.com (mail-pg1-x52a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52a]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 26C7E4130D for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 06:48:06 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-pg1-x52a.google.com with SMTP id x37so3265519pga.1 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 13:48:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1678740485; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:references:in-reply-to :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=ATtvK4HjB82VX31dHQrbCYu6fInXuIkeFoiagCtd9gM=; b=HEiKfJQN0qhpm2t8RWvPo1ey1rs/3/TAr9g38zY6DJER04C3aK0qqLs5SZKcab9dzr f3yKAzoF3PUplfsEMeRnjOuTtpqHfOZJyGc1BRT01N9rDt6acRQayuiAjqzAdZWUiSmn B1eF0ct0WI4v9Gh7RaQqTtK9p5FCQQjXZxJpbn+UNNWSSCzb+OJTn7q/cHVLaTeXn/Wq or6oJu+wDFA/IEBpU/x1hm49jPvRYWsam+i+GuAWrRVgcRga0cH6jcAjHj9d6+rTyMiY UtKeP3aiS8U6M1scWRyl69/oCFPS0oQnp39PYw7E+4G7qVtnSSftVajr/lJHyZKrRMeJ YsRw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678740485; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:references:in-reply-to :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=ATtvK4HjB82VX31dHQrbCYu6fInXuIkeFoiagCtd9gM=; b=ICvxrs98Yga3aZ8Cz/RHHBzvyG1gmyBXe4UHwY8bWHjYtkCqbFT8I23v9scxG73qPa 1wOTQmuhJHowGJIDWjTUqIPI6wfIKlFTOJWoxDDylIHkBtEbE90qpDnemM2GxAKB4wnn IBAkQWDTb3l2jQvyCauc81S0Y470iXvXxhamxHmuCLnhPbUpTzu6a7P3R+eT1HA9JxNk KRTgA9IC6G4wG+VPn75h+6rxxCejkY1YXC5M4s5hh32wBrBPfMEog5vQ/vSS+AL942Tn 7rH+DJDu2tuwB8c4vSpis7xmwbQzGOlW4wGsL3t317il/V0xE+01OChzn5kUiphZQV9T MnmA== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKUlAY/cmu6OjJJRl72GdLP9DKz8rMTzT+e1DY+Gw9fhhcMW/sMe BVJPs6yW3d4t+iPywRUK2G0SFmlZ+KpalyZM6DB9ek+4 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+soOnVHIFdId58/ztKgAQom6+Ypn9Ux791e4NdRwL7njl8ayJNNI48nC5QIPfv5c1ZX4k92seinho5d2ND1DY= X-Received: by 2002:a62:1b50:0:b0:593:e110:9582 with SMTP id b77-20020a621b50000000b00593e1109582mr3953422pfb.2.1678740485351; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 13:48:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6a10:ed0c:b0:3bc:b7f6:895e with HTTP; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 13:48:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20230310113708.AD55518C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> From: Paul Winalski Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 16:48:04 -0400 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Message-ID-Hash: XKSHCZN4F6DKKAGBVNFR2ZK2A6QU5AFY X-Message-ID-Hash: XKSHCZN4F6DKKAGBVNFR2ZK2A6QU5AFY X-MailFrom: paul.winalski@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Alejandro Colomar , TUHS X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: [TUHS]: C dialects (was: I can't drive 55: "GOTO considered harmful" 55th anniversary) List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On 3/13/23, Clem Cole wrote: > > Too many people try to "fix" programming languages, particularly academics > and folks working on a new PhD. Other folks (Gnu is the best example IMO) > want to change things so the compiler writers (and it seems like the Linux > kernel developers) can do something "better" or "more easily." As someone > (I think Dan Cross) said, when that happens, it's no longer C. Without > Dennis here to say "whoa," - the committee is a tad open loop. Today's > language is hardly the language I learned before the "White Book" existed > in the early/mid 1970s. It's actually quite sad. I'm not so sure we are > "better" off. I'd rather see programming language standards committees restrict their activity to regularizing existing practice. Let vendors and others innovate by adding non-standard extensions. Then take those that are really useful and adopt them as part of the standard. But the committee itself should not be doing design. We all know what they say about "design by committee", and it's all too true. Programming language standards committees also tend to suffer from what I call the "dog and fire hydrant" problem. The committee members are like a pack of dogs, with the standard being the fire hydrant. Each dog doesn't consider the fire hydrant "theirs" until they've pissed on it. Programming languages get treated the same way by standards committee members. -Paul W.