From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id da939b39 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2018 13:12:00 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 7CCB0A2086; Mon, 3 Dec 2018 23:11:59 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFE7DA1CE9; Mon, 3 Dec 2018 23:11:17 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id B0DFAA1CE9; Mon, 3 Dec 2018 23:11:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wr1-f49.google.com (mail-wr1-f49.google.com [209.85.221.49]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EA68094A37 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2018 23:11:04 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wr1-f49.google.com with SMTP id l9so12098499wrt.13 for ; Mon, 03 Dec 2018 05:11:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1YXAEXOe4EyTzk+wtwNC+qC6yXO8DCQCaKMFD/no2uk=; b=kyN7YzkjqzZOfgLpNki7G3V0ExusCSAYjXzPA0ozAVDicWHtjBiVAsHqIuugGnHk8j VrZnICmRe1jYww0OIGZGxgSUIQCqXQdI+MZghOD5lhplx8z/zBRo0C+tqDHyhhwCN0tI AWY8VMf45WD6VU3XMycGrPP93Oarcx+d9sbJ8AMt+kAULc8snXzLYUjddLHNJPYckQE5 9PduC4KrZa952z0rUm8PoAeIJHbfL8m/OAh1HCo3Ulmfph1UowocsHDt83glqVvFGvbB wtWIlXCW/Zv8ZJZl0jS8lbLMiPhbDj3wbLD54XsXtyNEgqLQLyrlLKK65dLjaVPN16Jw 2lDQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1YXAEXOe4EyTzk+wtwNC+qC6yXO8DCQCaKMFD/no2uk=; b=q11Xslgtr8+pNddIpnoXtmdi0tKvQtZZcFlnEcVbCJREDJEOTFwNO58IMCCy4V8sRK BSVwnxycLy4qrLFxlRaA4T4QUsLbIvin8dpTCMgh3yDRfgunz3Cfl2u0UR2HLvdAEwmW qtpKdyAmq8MtzH7FIQ+OHLyScNwoLlkkW0T4UYo/z2NHNaLvZ6IbGpLMVqTa9vMTEoXz Y0C7mFbJFjxvFlBhUywoOweaa5tX918PQ/oEgBlmEDjLP/Jy5cLzQiM/We78VT+QkzR8 P8uOL+n0bnBX2fwqO9sW9JmauQOMF3YU3FV589gXNakHYXgHxngv1rUMOr7IBNeau0Lf 3a7w== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWaMCIcNHzskhquO49NgQAZgJJJ2mn4B1uYuuvmR9Lq3HqEQcs3a Ihpg+sGslYyWRUSEdDLe0T2qj4xa8dmqdVhJ8mo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/UVGJ6TjAOSP7QCNf84Vqf6MfNKPBYJbYy3Jxx+7q1oFSNGVIylatYZa5DbK3DqbrZR2zkpAx21cs/oxJ26P/c= X-Received: by 2002:adf:8143:: with SMTP id 61mr13511818wrm.47.1543842663257; Mon, 03 Dec 2018 05:11:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7942e6cc-177f-7155-f80f-80732da69d51@telegraphics.com.au> In-Reply-To: From: "John P. Linderman" Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 08:10:51 -0500 Message-ID: To: Rob Pike Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000886570057c1de193" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Happy birthday, John Backus! X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000886570057c1de193 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" If you understood the architecture and instruction set of the IBM 709/7090/7094 series (I cut my programming teeth on the 7094), you understood the "quirks" of Fortan: three way branches, indexing arrays in reverse order, always executing a loop at least once, etc. Fortran "tricked" the writer into producing code that worked well on those machines, but was much easier to understand and modify than assembler. Not all that different from C and DEC boxes, but the IBM machines were less coherent. On Sun, Dec 2, 2018 at 11:29 PM Rob Pike wrote: > To the author of the first message, the one who called Fortran an > "obscenity". > > -rob > > > On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 3:11 PM Toby Thain > wrote: > >> On 2018-12-02 8:32 PM, Rob Pike wrote: >> > Fortran was a marvel. Don't judge it by today's ideas about language >> design. >> >> The 1977 lecture was by John Backus, not me, so I'm confused who that's >> directed at. >> >> > >> > -rob >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 9:34 AM Toby Thain > > > wrote: >> > >> > On 2018-12-02 5:17 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote: >> > > As every computer programmer should know, John Backus was emitted >> in >> > > 1924; he gave us the BNF syntax (he is the "B"), but he also gave >> us >> > > that FORTRAN obscenity... Yeah, it was a nice language at the >> > time; the >> > > engineers loved it, but tthe computer scientists hated it (have >> > you ever >> > > tried to debug a FORTRAN program that somebody else wrote?). >> > >> > He made amends by being early to recognise that problem, and propose >> > solutions, in his 1977 ACM Turing Award lecture (still perfectly >> > relevant today): >> > >> > >> https://www.thocp.net/biographies/papers/backus_turingaward_lecture.pdf >> > >> > --Toby >> > >> > >> > >> > > >> > > Trivia: there is no way that FORTRAN can be described in any >> > syntax; it >> > > is completely ad-hoc. >> > > >> > > -- Dave >> > > >> > >> >> --000000000000886570057c1de193 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If = you understood the architecture and instruction set of the IBM 709/7090/709= 4 series (I cut my programming teeth on the 7094), you understood the "= ;quirks" of Fortan: three way branches, indexing arrays in reverse ord= er, always executing a loop at least once, etc. Fortran "tricked"= the writer into producing code that worked well on those machines, but was= much easier to understand and modify than assembler. Not all that differen= t from C and DEC boxes, but the IBM machines were less coherent.

On Sun, Dec 2, 2018 at 11:= 29 PM Rob Pike <robpike@gmail.com> wrote:

On = 2018-12-02 8:32 PM, Rob Pike wrote:
> Fortran was a marvel. Don't judge it by today's ideas about la= nguage design.

The 1977 lecture was by John Backus, not me, so I'm confused who that&#= 39;s
directed at.

>
> -rob
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 9:34 AM Toby Thain <toby@telegraphics.com.au
> <mailto:toby@telegraphics.com.au>> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 2018-12-02 5:17 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> As every computer programmer should know, John= Backus was emitted in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> 1924; he gave us the BNF syntax (he is the &qu= ot;B"), but he also gave us
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> that FORTRAN obscenity...=C2=A0 Yeah, it was a= nice language at the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0time; the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> engineers loved it, but tthe computer scientis= ts hated it (have
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0you ever
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> tried to debug a FORTRAN program that somebody= else wrote?).
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0He made amends by being early to recognise that pro= blem, and propose
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0solutions, in his 1977 ACM Turing Award lecture (st= ill perfectly
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0relevant today):
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https= ://www.thocp.net/biographies/papers/backus_turingaward_lecture.pdf
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--Toby
>
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> Trivia: there is no way that FORTRAN can be de= scribed in any
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0syntax; it
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> is completely ad-hoc.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> -- Dave
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>

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