From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.1 (2015-04-28) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.9 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED, DKIM_SIGNED,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.1 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id fb0154a5 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2018 22:19:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id DDC5DA1B1C; Sun, 26 Aug 2018 08:19:36 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C12AA1A28; Sun, 26 Aug 2018 08:19:11 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=uV2kbEVx; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 1FC3FA19FC; Sun, 26 Aug 2018 08:19:09 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wm0-f50.google.com (mail-wm0-f50.google.com [74.125.82.50]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 150F59E7E7 for ; Sun, 26 Aug 2018 08:19:08 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wm0-f50.google.com with SMTP id 207-v6so4788528wme.5 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2018 15:19:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=CGRzmndEqBNKlw3K/g1jSblQwZzg0mcSVQMCPxQrdno=; b=uV2kbEVx7lbcyV0w5QTSzuw/OXTUtoscSeHY/a1ki73NreObs7FtsfCjq+859r7CJO VEL8Bvn3siSheMDXF6UNi19q943pCksx6uzEgY6npWjvIWdy4R/hNOgva/40u5GjfFDe 9FkTru/e04vjF8LGKHA3ZgTrDTuKeCD3+y+/I3Dj6sUNoUJDCHH89oW8VxJU3ad6VPF7 dO6ECy+p5WmZ2kSvjhxo89gkPHlVIneU6OsaU8Zh8YMtr0JuNyoWchCzNoUCSk6YNA7V xnRjb7OXEitmZldeyHDK8HZdLqwo0mvoTrZ/0xkYUwMizestuUCXCEBpjNHmLgLKD5Vs Q2Ew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=CGRzmndEqBNKlw3K/g1jSblQwZzg0mcSVQMCPxQrdno=; b=XAkYOOZdlV58RN0uyOaBQPo8BxzRj7Uwzy41WJGHHuS7i4MZmQvz0OtNjfi6lPelPt BEAniTHe1XB8dZKOhVdS+RpxBs30F+ipJ9tAdyCp6NH/nooOzd+JVks1A79p/LQ4tWvU ifyDQE5SLNW/EkXn1oYz2Gq6h6se00HpHyQEMi10AOBCSrMURpdszo8Kt0zzZ2uRB5Ep 62XFLt+95P51rmcQ38ymnZEcEsMdNf6c0ifKxnYFpMqVaa4runRpTK0Eq4CUGIpkdn5e 0WiJoXKTIWH47olyBkLdNHgDgAAyKbYXzPRAQGkZMrTo2ByA4Lsr/wxD+Nq/NptE5OZk ABmA== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51CyXmtjD7sW6pRpQsD8AhOwcDyognGqK3h6oo8yBorTHNmEe7If iFaE0qcXz4vdx3QYjAuLXX5K8/luSDYMbZo/XeU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdY5o2eYfy0KJ6Dpg+YzS4bQc9VgncwQYnGetO0wuXxLQot7GZbUWWI1l9EX8meyDLbh25uRLuGUzswUKdUZKVQ= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:1510:: with SMTP id 16-v6mr1907407wmv.74.1535235546641; Sat, 25 Aug 2018 15:19:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:adf:dd88:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sat, 25 Aug 2018 15:19:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201808240702.w7O72pJT005068@freefriends.org> <201808251830.w7PIURLX024379@freefriends.org> From: "John P. Linderman" Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 18:19:05 -0400 Message-ID: To: Clem Cole Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000677aaa057449e155" Subject: Re: [TUHS] changes in C compilers X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000677aaa057449e155 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" *Ted took fsck back to Summit & MH* I got my introduction to UNIX in '73 or '74, when the group running the 11/45 in Piscataway found out I came into work before 6am. UNIX was so unstable back then that it had to be rebooted every day, to contain file system corruption. A 6 am reboot went pretty much unnoticed. I could swear we ran something very like fsck after each reboot. In particular, I recall the **gok** diagnostic when the type of an inode wasn't anything recognizable. Whatever we ran, I'm sure it continued to evolve. On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 3:58 PM, Clem Cole wrote: > > > On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 2:38 PM wrote: > >> The APS work started in the summer of 1979. See >> http://www.eprg.org/papers/202paper.pdf >> and see some of the other stuff at >> http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~bwk/202/index.html. >> >> I think that's after V7 was released. >> > Ok, so that was clearly the first ditroff. > > Typesetter C *must have been the original troff release* which was > separate from V6; but I don't remember what all was in the release. > Looking at the v6 distribution tape I have, the assembler versions of roff > and nroff was there; but not troff. V7 clearly shows the original troff > in the sources. > > > The order I remember is this ... V5, V6, Patches, Typesetter C, TS, V7 > ... although TS and Typesetter might be switched but I know we got > Typesetter C before we got V7. Ted brought TS to us (in EE) and I > thought that had the new compiler. CS got TS from us in EE. But > somebody at CMU had wanted troff because we had the XGP in CS that we drive > with Scribe (I want to say that was EE but I don't remember who was > involved). So I have memory of somebody hacking on the compiler at some > point. The POR (which if ever came to bear at CMU was after I left) was > some type of hacking on troff to support the XGP. Given the time Aharon > points out, it might have been direct support it or it might have been > something like vcat - I was not involved. Klone might remember more of > that. > > Clearly from the time, ditroff did not yet exist. The more I think about > it, Brian K actually might know some of the story. Scribe was Brian Reid's > PhD Thesis and Brian K was on Reid's committee at the time and I'm guessing > could somehow have been mixed up. > > FWIW: Compiler hacking at CMU stands out in my mind because of the 11/40e > had CSAV/CRET instructions. The CS versions of the compilers generated > code using that, because they had 11/40e with CMU WCS options. The rest of > us in EE, BioMed, Mellon Institute etc were running on 11/34's or 11/34A > which could not handle those binaries (no WCS). So I personally spent > time tracking the CS versions of the compiler and bringing things to EE, > trying to keep thing clean. That was one of my jobs at the time. > > That's fairly sure of the order, because we had Typesetter C at CMU in the > Summer '78 when were we negotiating the 'university' commercial V7 license > with Al Arms [which I was personally mixed up -- the finally > ruling/agreement was license one system as a commercial system at the $20K > fee and a university, could then use UNIX for back office and commercial > style uses like Industry. Al did not require the $5K second CPU stuff from > the Universities, if they got a single $20K license; everyone was happy - > details off list or another thread if you want them; although I will say > CMU was first in early '79, followed by Case in late 1979]. > > So again, I try to date by things I know are fixed in time and then work > from there. As Dan points out the cross pollination was high in those > days and it was not just from the labs to the Universities. For instance, > Ted took fsck back to Summit & MH, as well as a number of other tools > (although I think that one had the longest reach). Noel has mentioned > similar stories from MIT. Chesson brought all the networking stuff from > UoI and we saw some of it in datakit (an earlier version of his mpx code > for V7 he did as a grad student). You get the idea.... > > Clem > > --000000000000677aaa057449e155 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ted took fsck back to Summit & MH

I got my introduction to UNIX in '73 or '74, when the= group running the 11/45 in Piscataway found out I came into work before 6a= m. UNIX was so unstable back then that it had to be rebooted every day, to = contain file system corruption. A 6 am reboot went pretty much unnoticed. I= could swear we ran something very like fsck after each reboot. In particul= ar, I recall the **gok** diagnostic when the type of an inode wasn't an= ything recognizable. Whatever we ran, I'm sure it continued to evolve.<= /div>

On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 3:58 PM, Clem Cole &l= t;clemc@ccc.com><= /span> wrote:


On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at = 2:38 PM <arnold@s= keeve.com> wrote:
The APS = work started in the summer of 1979. See http://www.eprg.org/p= apers/202paper.pdf
and see some of the other stuff at
http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~bwk/202/index.html<= /a>.

I think that's after V7 was released.



The order I remember is this ... V5= , V6, Patches, Typesetter C, TS, V7 ...=C2=A0 =C2=A0although TS and Typeset= ter might be switched but I know we got Typesetter C before we got V7.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Ted brought TS to us (in EE) and I thought that had the new comp= iler.=C2=A0 =C2=A0CS got TS from us in EE.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 But somebody at CMU= had wanted troff because we had the XGP in CS that we drive with Scribe (I= want to say that was EE but I don't remember who was involved).=C2=A0 = =C2=A0So I have memory of somebody hacking on the compiler at some point.= =C2=A0 The POR (which if ever came to bear at CMU was after I left) was som= e type of hacking on troff to support the XGP.=C2=A0 Given the time Aharon = points out, it might have been direct support it or it might have been some= thing like vcat - I was not involved.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Klone might remember more= of that.

Clearly from the time, ditroff did not yet e= xist.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The more I think about it, Brian K actually might know so= me of the story.=C2=A0 Scribe was Brian Reid's PhD Thesis and Brian K w= as on Reid's committee at the time and I'm guessing could somehow h= ave been mixed up.

FWIW: Compiler hacking at CMU stand= s out in my mind because of the 11/40e had CSAV/CRET instructions.=C2=A0 Th= e CS versions of the compilers generated code using that, because they had = 11/40e with CMU WCS options.=C2=A0 The rest of us in EE, BioMed, Mellon Ins= titute etc were running on 11/34's or 11/34A which could not handle tho= se binaries (no WCS).=C2=A0 =C2=A0So I personally spent time tracking the C= S versions of the compiler and bringing things to EE, trying to keep thing = clean.=C2=A0 That was one of my jobs at the time.

So again, I try to date by things I know are fixed in time and the= n work from there.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As Dan points out the cross pollination was = high in those days and it was not just from the labs to the Universities.= =C2=A0 For instance, Ted took fsck back to Summit & MH, as well as a nu= mber of other tools (although I think that one had the longest reach).=C2= =A0 =C2=A0Noel has mentioned similar stories from MIT.=C2=A0 Chesson brough= t all the networking stuff from UoI and we saw some of it in datakit (an ea= rlier version of his mpx code for V7 he did as a grad student).=C2=A0 =C2= =A0You get the idea....

Clem


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