From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 6713 invoked from network); 4 Oct 2021 13:41:17 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 4 Oct 2021 13:41:17 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 7B6469CBD5; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 23:41:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 449BD9CAF1; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 23:40:09 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="PuTZb9jf"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 634F39CAF1; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 23:40:06 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-yb1-f181.google.com (mail-yb1-f181.google.com [209.85.219.181]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C4B79CAE9 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 2021 23:40:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-yb1-f181.google.com with SMTP id v195so37198918ybb.0 for ; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 06:40:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=D/UYrlyKmGvau2+4UlO3CAuXqzEw3NF1d6wIg++QueQ=; b=PuTZb9jfJrCsFctTUYnj/w4jfstUjcpVAOSARR1VDA69rNrKCle18cjjIUsRoKphd1 jOn8d0TA/PuehYXnnuplfwkU3T9KzJK8KlatCToYSOHtwPU73OK5rgU+dG3l2X6CkCl0 ABMQdBB6hnVbyC79PlIkJMQdmx3SCpaXB17qvZFzrrQ3m6eEfGCFk/NiKtygcSIzEc9J Tp2LQmoY1DFpN11BQXwQdbqUndZN69g8UQilWYDU2Xk2ebkosTtc4PSQb4bcNSg+l3eu Ku3l1zt/0wS6+GqR8pXMSxa5gu6p2GdeYYEQaYGAL138HEjwGF5Ca85bI8h/lG5C4/vz 0wZw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=D/UYrlyKmGvau2+4UlO3CAuXqzEw3NF1d6wIg++QueQ=; b=XrDaCSw3IpIdu/zZSBsTtZCVUYr5CSX6x8uj8hkAiBBBpE2EpxCGaLKftdqXs2hW30 3MAP+5YW0GuqI+Q6u/qopGAsd8c5Sd4Cc8MdSb0nB/TjDG3JHTPS6BV9Af8SezlK7psL OagbFJG+7kFnv7efD4xCmxN2SPStQznGr6K7aPbmdTovwfEkg7x3PofZITreh+9zQd5x zsqwLSfoWj3qoX7SbmS30IEva5IOuyqea21NKLQmqOJJ9Oc1ZaPf1ENy5hTyo9q2SDNj r6Mc2KVqT9v8WzXykpLwJDxTvWMbFndGHTh+htsRXHyYhPZv5newoUakJ6VEf2BteX2l +cPA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530fRsjg+CTr3bvi+JRjSHRb/ufN2xtqVio+MrWP1cCfrYYHvWng GiPYg13Kq9SKdOwtbcwQlleZLw1YpYgO5pt7/xw1Shyz X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwier6cgR9kW2/nqTplTJjcB/weWR9T0zFu2UZEHWNcGCoYdSvhYfm9SxjmcWGF23tBG0yArK6EzDXbtuQXPKU= X-Received: by 2002:a25:3817:: with SMTP id f23mr14707739yba.436.1633354804052; Mon, 04 Oct 2021 06:40:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20211003221017.2B799640CC6@lignose.oclsc.org> In-Reply-To: <20211003221017.2B799640CC6@lignose.oclsc.org> From: "John P. Linderman" Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2021 09:39:52 -0400 Message-ID: To: Norman Wilson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e3483805cd870c05" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Groups origins X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000e3483805cd870c05 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Having roots in the more "businessy" areas of the Labs, groups made sense for a collection of people working on the same project. You wanted everyone in the group to be able to create files and directories, but not people outside the group, less because you didn't trust most of the people sharing a machine than because you didn't want accidental destruction from outside. But the newgroup command for acting as a member of the group was clunky. Use of groups for this purpose didn't become practical until 1) you could be members of multiple groups simultaneously and 2) the group ownership of newly created files and directories would be that of the directory in which they were created, if you were a member of that group. Of course, this meant your umask should confer group write permission by default, which didn't work well if your primary group was widely shared. So we adopted the policy of everyone having a primary group with the same id as your user id. "Private" files and directories were not group-modifiable by anyone other than yourself, but "project" files were modifiable by anyone in the project group. This made groups work seamlessly. Just do a chgrp on a directory where group sharing was to be done, and everything just worked thereafter. On Sun, Oct 3, 2021 at 6:12 PM Norman Wilson wrote: > I can't speak to the evolution and use of specific > groups; I suspect it was all ad-hoc early on. > > Groups appeared surprisingly late (given how familiar > they seem now): they don't show up in the manual > until the Sixth Edition. Before that, chown took > only two arguments (filename and owner), and > permission modes had three bits fewer. > > I forget how it came up, but the late Lee McMahon > once told me an amusing story about their origin: > > Ken announced that he was adding groups. > > Lee asked what they were for. > > Ken replied with a shrug and `I dunno.' > > Norman Wilson > Toronto ON > --000000000000e3483805cd870c05 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hav= ing roots in the more "businessy" areas of the Labs, groups made = sense for a collection of people working on the same project. You wanted ev= eryone in the group to be able to create files and directories, but not peo= ple outside the group, less because you didn't trust most of the people= sharing a machine than because you didn't want accidental destruction = from outside. But the newgroup command for acting as a member of the group = was clunky. Use of groups for this purpose didn't become practical unti= l 1) you could be members of multiple groups simultaneously=C2=A0and 2) the= group ownership of newly created files and directories would be that of th= e directory in which they were created, if you were a member of that group.= Of course, this meant your umask should confer group write permission by d= efault, which didn't work well if your primary group was widely shared.= So we adopted the policy of everyone having a primary group with the same = id as your user id. "Private" files and directories were not grou= p-modifiable by anyone other than yourself, but "project" files w= ere modifiable by anyone in the project group. This made groups work seamle= ssly. Just do a chgrp on a directory where group sharing was to be done, an= d everything just worked thereafter.=C2=A0

On Sun, Oct 3, 2021 at 6:12= PM Norman Wilson <norman@oclsc.org<= /a>> wrote:
I= can't speak to the evolution and use of specific
groups; I suspect it was all ad-hoc early on.

Groups appeared surprisingly late (given how familiar
they seem now): they don't show up in the manual
until the Sixth Edition.=C2=A0 Before that, chown took
only two arguments (filename and owner), and
permission modes had three bits fewer.

I forget how it came up, but the late Lee McMahon
once told me an amusing story about their origin:

Ken announced that he was adding groups.

Lee asked what they were for.

Ken replied with a shrug and `I dunno.'

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON
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