From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 14350 invoked from network); 6 Aug 2023 16:32:43 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 6 Aug 2023 16:32:43 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF1C241619; Mon, 7 Aug 2023 02:32:37 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vk1-xa33.google.com (mail-vk1-xa33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a33]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94C10415B5 for ; Mon, 7 Aug 2023 02:32:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vk1-xa33.google.com with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-4872b26b352so290172e0c.0 for ; Sun, 06 Aug 2023 09:32:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1691339547; x=1691944347; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=qltZLVbDtqUKNBxyywyQULc6mTri8mSGmGbIGGuTZxg=; b=e3pyHERW5OtP/7VQZAZr12iDn80542ZRDza6YVeIztYiHuy/4q0LHR2o/E5gOUgnoc 7WFeJZUiwu4sdJ8kA8aDj4/HtjM2NoJJo/pH2H+CuyLxJNr6GIREa7luJNy0yqcH1IeZ SBPJzqVEycJd5QGsqHTsAEt2nOznAXmB1I4Fk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1691339547; x=1691944347; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=qltZLVbDtqUKNBxyywyQULc6mTri8mSGmGbIGGuTZxg=; b=QFC25knNT/cpCH55I2tXqprNsX0ksPDrMvD3JN/BoM6dRadr1fooBuabUsTEW944Im gli1QEwt0N67pTqiZjH1oXcxOCwsjQzeN7VJUlkAc0fXBpOQZe94x19WAGtymjLJWdc8 FVsx6bijHP9DA2z5OJHvWWyd/dmQSEitA9GnEDHbb0wguphMF1bb/0AJgkaJ/PL9cyuY TMFOhBys4Ez5Mapb3pylU02vlMBYnKBr4K5dplikU7rnEctjSSHfOQAWMjNpdFIXlM8S XLWkiGhLSxPqBgWwFVgLUitGoi4mPaEifHNKLmKq9WHXiD0dZKUkdR5r4AghLS1fzYhp KsyQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxJPblV/XjWnsmboXlED1EQkYkdyuwQNoXb39AAos+s6MFnn0FL zOkr0dscsZ2zof9HIlBoWdcv80rCMyPg+dJZtg01tqh/SYlXFy1T X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGiXQc6PfQQs08PU2bxaUD1hU1uBtc28q+NQEjlwp0vfLNHhCDfYa7GCsP1FP2Yicla0DtjeTOVHe7XJKLv+M4= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:6053:0:b0:485:ac24:df1 with SMTP id u80-20020a1f6053000000b00485ac240df1mr3773049vkb.12.1691339547174; Sun, 06 Aug 2023 09:32:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <709cc67b2a5670f2038914beafd605c4@yaccman.com> <20230806004343.GH19141@mcvoy.com> <87il9s442v.fsf@vuxu.org> In-Reply-To: <87il9s442v.fsf@vuxu.org> From: Clem Cole Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2023 12:31:51 -0400 Message-ID: To: Leah Neukirchen Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e77dd0060243acf4" Message-ID-Hash: ECRF5R7MXYETFCQ5ZCKQCV4VE7HPLJBF X-Message-ID-Hash: ECRF5R7MXYETFCQ5ZCKQCV4VE7HPLJBF X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Early Unix and Keyboard Skills List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000e77dd0060243acf4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Aug 6, 2023 at 10:51=E2=80=AFAM Leah Neukirchen wro= te: > Vim was based on Stevie, an Atari ST vi clone he ported to the Amiga 2000= . > Thank you. I also remember stevie and that stevie beget vim make so much sense. It was one of the clones I ran back in the day. The point is that there were (are) a number of vi clones. Which is why I started to switch to it. It ran on everything from small 8-bit systems on up. Particularly on the micros, they all had something akin to what Microsoft called edlin, often just called edit. If you knew UNIX ed(1) or any other editor from the old GED family from the 1960s, chances were you could make it do something -- but it was PITA as each was a bit different So copies of the editors from the larger [often DEC based systems] started to appear on the smaller and smaller machines. And vi seemed to be a pretty popular as a starting point[I always suspect Webb Miller's book had something to do with that since 's' was so small and using it to add missing vi features was not terrible]. That said, there was an IBM PC/386 "MS-DOS" version of vi that required ANSI.SYS that was on the market for about $50-$100. It was 'bug for bug' compatible with Joy's version. I always suspected that unlike Keith, they just took the Vax code, stripped out termcap so it did not need an external terminal database, hard coded it for ANSI.SYS, then ran it through the PHARLAP C/386 subsystem. Unlike any of the other 'clones' until nvi -- it was the only one that had some of the same wonkiness. As I understand it from him, Keith did nvi(1) because Joy's original work was based on the v6 ed(1). As part of Keith's effort to try to remove any core code in the BSD releases that had any AT&T source taint, it was just easier to start over. The Berkeley Shell [in 1BSD] beget the C Shell, was derived from Ken's sh in v5 and v6. I think Keith/Kirk et al felt that any of Ken's original code had long been removed - whereas ex(1) (vi is the actually the VIsual command for ex) probably had a lot of core ed(1)= . Clem =E1=90=A7 --000000000000e77dd0060243acf4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun, Aug 6, 2023 at 10:51= =E2=80=AFAM Leah Neukirchen <leah@vuxu.= org> wrote:
Vim was based on Stevie, an Atari ST vi clone he ported to the Amiga 200= 0.
Thank you. I also remember stevie and that stev= ie beget vim make so much sense.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It was one of the clones I ran= back in the day.

The point = is that there were (are) a number of vi clones.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Which is why I = started to switch to it.=C2=A0 It ran on everything from=C2=A0small 8-bit s= ystems on up.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Particularly on the micros, they all had somethin= g akin to what Microsoft called edlin, often just=C2=A0called edit.=C2=A0 I= f you knew UNIX ed(1) or any other editor from the old GED family from the = 1960s, chances were you could make it do something -- but it was PITA as ea= ch was a bit different=C2=A0 =C2=A0So copies of the editors from the larger= [often DEC based systems] started to appear on the smaller and smaller mac= hines.=C2=A0

And vi seemed t= o be a pretty popular as a starting point[I always suspect Webb Miller'= s book had something to do with that since 's' was=C2=A0so small an= d using it to=C2=A0add=C2=A0 missing vi features was not terrible].=C2=A0 T= hat said, there was an IBM PC/386 "MS-DOS" version of vi that req= uired ANSI.SYS that was on the market for about $50-$100.=C2=A0 It was '= ;bug for bug' compatible with Joy's version.=C2=A0 I always suspect= ed that unlike Keith, they just took the Vax code, stripped out termcap so = it did not need an=C2=A0external terminal database, hard coded it for ANSI.= SYS, then ran it through the PHARLAP=C2=A0C/386 subsystem.=C2=A0 Unlike any= of the other 'clones' until nvi -- it was the only one that had so= me of the same wonkiness.

As= I understand it from him, Keith did nvi(1) because Joy's original=C2= =A0work was based on the v6 ed(1).=C2=A0 As part of Keith's effort to t= ry to remove any core code in the BSD releases that had any AT&T source= taint, it was just easier to start over.=C2=A0 The Berkeley Shell [in 1BSD= ] beget the C Shell, was derived from Ken's sh in v5 and v6.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0I think Keith/Kirk et al felt that=C2=A0any of Ken's original code h= ad long been removed - whereas ex(1) (vi is the actually the VIsual command= for ex) probably had a lot of core ed(1).

=

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