From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id fe35a514 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:51:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 34B819BFE9; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 00:51:06 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AAC29B898; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 00:50:36 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="F2JA4W5C"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 216779B898; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 00:50:33 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ot1-f49.google.com (mail-ot1-f49.google.com [209.85.210.49]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60AC193D06 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 00:50:29 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ot1-f49.google.com with SMTP id r9so16293376otp.13 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 06:50:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=vJ/SdgbcBwVNNzNlHO/A/xU2G9/kkcVGwJP9fVRioYs=; b=F2JA4W5CshkQk7IGp2WDRk9wiujdcewlCThW4r2CVq5e2QnseznupWtWwAyq+OHRfK FOIMggiVtF9pPz9U2c/hVyHFEO2SF5iYj9d4wDHjs9iIWria4OLHDR0dTyNlaDsGW9cd NbFde7/21sbe2RXsz3vXoQ7tGbxBtmfkbHVkU= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=vJ/SdgbcBwVNNzNlHO/A/xU2G9/kkcVGwJP9fVRioYs=; b=NwwsKRqvk/dBgG/oNj+KCAtaYEe27C0L+HZqdzCBTj1sINOkL060Bm5dEj0k09V8dz ZsOP4lJ6q45NnP+DWKHMPzPbC8b6DnrnUPZmRPMWleaziAVAJQSj6oSK65Kh/FCHpHs7 hkmy/kmuCT7ZpbqZB1kPVHSVsVnfE92fZMsea3kcGZesdZnNd3G1rBdyzgx6PZr4GH94 FfRuMGQsQLfV/1QqcyasOIWiahPg4BywoO7VryNucrikTywECf8cDfH6DKBTNME7CV1q B/QNsmX6tFj7wAj6GMUX+YteodlfZuLqINgzCg4dYwN2Gj0Xiib92Swe+5kKKjzZpieJ 0VTA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW9frtH7qyj1TY3RgBqjM4u2RJ/A6WIeNmcVoXjY8fKjV5ss9+m iLnfV090Lp/vfD34PafWjxOYzPWM1Vrb+eiK/CzoWG7OYpxdag== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyqNKAp+U/KEX9gqqy3g/yU9T7sYgM7h8emkDOqnQ+1xs6cXgwNBM+zs/ULTVWcHLeXXwFVD25DUFt6l7JUV20= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1f19:: with SMTP id u25mr3059229otg.170.1579099828432; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 06:50:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7wsgkhgs5l.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <202001150710.00F7AsFQ1716609@darkstar.fourwinds.com> In-Reply-To: <202001150710.00F7AsFQ1716609@darkstar.fourwinds.com> From: Clem Cole Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 09:50:02 -0500 Message-ID: To: Jon Steinhart Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000056c32a059c2ed4a1" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Spacewar at Bell Labs [ really paper tape readers and tangentially related things ] X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000056c32a059c2ed4a1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 2:12 AM Jon Steinhart wrote: > we tried to use LSI-11s > but those turned out to be useless because of the way that DEC did the DR= AM > refresh; it wasn't interleaved, they just stopped everything every so man= y > ms and refreshed everything. Non-starter for real-time systems. > Be careful as to who you denigrate, my friend. =F0=9F=98=82 Very interesting history, IMO. Yes, DEC sold the LSI-11, but Western Digital designed it. DEC (KO specifically) had just put Ray Ball and Ken O'humundro's CalData out of business for cloning the PDP-11/45 with a Unibus on his Caldata 500 . At the time, WD had developed and started to sell to the systems manufacturers a new set of bit-slice chips the MCP-1600 , to compete with AMD's 2900 and Intel 3000 series (plus they were already a chip supplier to DEC for UARTS)= . So WD designs and builds a few LSI-11 as a sales demo of what you could do with their new bit-slice chip (*i.e. *as those things often go, the board, bus, and memory was a quick and cheap hack). It's important to note that the way DEC nailed CalData was the *same instruction set on the same bus*, WD did their own bus for their demo. Also, please remember that at the time, WD was in the chip business. KO's reaction this time was different. Instead of suing, DEC got the design and started to build and sell them. WD took the board design, wrote a new set of microcode based on the USCD Pascal-P machine , then sold that as a 'system' called the Pascal MicroEngine , but primarily used it is the sales demo. I remember seeing one of the WD Pascal-P systems once when we were at Tek (along with my favorite named workstation, the Modula based Lilith ). But I do not think the Pascal-P (nor Lilith) was very successful. Also, AMD ultimately won the bit-slice chip business, as most designers at manufacturers like DEC, Masscomp, FPS, *et al*. designed their new systems or at least the FP/AP coprocessors with the 2900 series. BTW: this is also why a few years later when Ken O'Humundro created another full computer board with a 68000 on it with his new Able Computer Corp, he put it on the QBUS which DEC could not lock up because they did not create it as WD had. --00000000000056c32a059c2ed4a1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On W= ed, Jan 15, 2020 at 2:12 AM Jon Steinhart <jon@fourwinds.com> wrote:
=
w= e tried to use LSI-11s
but those turned out to be useless because of the way that DEC did the DRAM=
refresh; it wasn't interleaved, they just stopped everything every so m= any
ms and refreshed everything.=C2=A0 Non-starter for real-time systems.
Be careful as to who you= denigrate, my friend.=C2=A0=F0=9F=98=82

Very interest= ing history, IMO.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yes, DEC sold the LSI-11, but Western Digita= l designed it.=C2=A0 DEC (KO specifically) had just put Ray Ball and Ken O&= #39;humundro's CalData out of business for cloning the PDP-11/45 with a= Unibus on his Caldata 500.=C2=A0 =C2=A0At the time, WD had developed = and started to sell to the systems manufacturers a new set of bit-slice chi= ps the=C2=A0MCP-1600, to compete with AMD's 2900 and I= ntel 3000 series (plus they were already a chip supplier to DEC for UARTS).= =C2=A0=C2=A0 So WD designs and builds a few LSI-11 as a sales demo of what you= could do with their new bit-slice chip (i.e.=C2=A0as those things o= ften go, the board, bus, and memory was a quick and cheap hack).=C2=A0 =C2= =A0

It's impo= rtant to note that=C2=A0the way DEC nailed CalData was the same i= nstruction set on the same bus, WD did their own bus for their demo= .=C2=A0 Also, please remember that at the time, WD was in the chip business.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0KO's reaction this time was different.=C2=A0 Instead of suing= , DEC got the design and started to build and sell them.=C2=A0 =C2=A0WD= took the board design, wrote a new set of microcode based on the USCD Pascal-P machine, t= hen sold that as a 'system' called the Pascal MicroEngine, but primarily used= it is the sales demo.

I remember seeing one of the WD Pascal-P sys= tems once when we were at Tek (along with my favorite named workstation, th= e Modula=C2=A0based Lilith).=C2=A0 But I do not think the Pascal-P (nor Lilith) was ve= ry successful.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Also, AMD ultimately won the bit-slice chip busi= ness, as most designers at manufacturers like DEC, Masscomp, FPS, et al<= /i>. designed their new systems or at least the FP/AP coprocessors with the= 2900 series.

BTW: this is also why a few years later when Ken O= 9;Humundro created another full computer board with a 68000 on it with his = new Able=C2=A0 Computer Corp, he put it on the QBUS which DEC could not loc= k up because they did not create it as WD had.
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