From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 32e6eccf for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 14:56:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 49C8F9BCEC; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 00:56:42 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABA999BC99; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 00:56:13 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="iJSoh9HH"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 477FE9BC99; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 00:56:11 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wm1-f54.google.com (mail-wm1-f54.google.com [209.85.128.54]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 817F99BC42 for ; Thu, 29 Aug 2019 00:56:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wm1-f54.google.com with SMTP id v15so412940wml.0 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 07:56:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=vP9RibjU7aMeA3/qccMJQje5LkBOhIPfJlO3ujGWUOo=; b=iJSoh9HHUBt6Z3CbQtpoUScIg9EWA1e85fzReDb2ClVIMbMc1zu2GrZbLb9cV7i3ZQ WVl8ojEbT2vOCXi7/xycVSJaW3deArGMMIzyFt4nLWryJoTHad85QGg4g1PrUsPLe1Y5 H+99CK7Y/do2KaUhmfELKUs4FXIEYNpgbycTY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=vP9RibjU7aMeA3/qccMJQje5LkBOhIPfJlO3ujGWUOo=; b=nKi3tCtNCuq3ZmhSnqo1CmMaqGnL+FHKJktvHG8EAoIQRSIWXZm4NYfFxoxO+QAV+8 UadhN87HWcLK1Cvm2r2CIX8ezj5exczDohHDwvpq1zIVRoox/fUO3qfc+ubgy9ovkg3K X2qlJ7SDXE4MkOc3JzOKUgT9QDjj3yK5aTIpKOM2dwHCNUb4OOZXBBkxTCmG/mpOaVib M9Gu0hZQPzfntqz9pFopwDWRD0gi6d7xFSChnjHQEZWNkfJKrsd4FL/IoDwwbhdNyzcN KKuNUwfoAHIvFAQtFCXGXoqy4AgkeDAPmpSCTUh5+WcZLhi58Bm+Z3xzUcECCAuxI64+ U6Pg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX2MvMo4vvj7xKauJingihOHQBPcnX3V+Fs5Pv8BTd4SSz/wDua U/szIXGdhZn9wz0plGNZsQqAxnt+NsE0fvJ7yNOx+OxauW5GfQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzJIbZ9ZBE7XVmmXRzhp4W6b9B14CRoaetHknulyQDCeskYYYSWRvqtXuk/vbz5kNCf0brai3iSlU77Vgjpyt8= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:ca54:: with SMTP id m20mr5500963wml.102.1567004168729; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 07:56:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <13c5c36e-c84d-e020-d09e-51c8c502dc6d@kilonet.net> <08473671-7927-48B7-A4DD-5F766C34E2D7@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <08473671-7927-48B7-A4DD-5F766C34E2D7@gmail.com> From: Clem Cole Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 10:55:42 -0400 Message-ID: To: TUHS main list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d6c3c105912e9698" Subject: Re: [TUHS] If not Linux, then what? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000d6c3c105912e9698 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 10:10 AM Earl Baugh wrote: > One point/ direction nobody seems to have mentioned was =E2=80=9Cwhat if = Linus > found out about BSD on PC hw=E2=80=9D? From what I=E2=80=99ve read he wa= sn=E2=80=99t aware of it, > so perhaps a very different outcome could have been > A couple of items. Linus is on record as saying if he had known about the 'magic FTP site' at UCB for 386BSD code download, he would have obtained it [it is how most of us got it in those days]. The sad part is that his University was licensed for it from UCB, so *they could have gotten the code* is they had asked for it. But as Larry has pointed out, many Universities in those days took a fairly restrictive view of access to the Unix sources; so it's still now clear if Linus himself would have gotten a copy. =E2=80=94 what if Linus did find out about it and then ultimately took it o= ver ( > removing the caustic personalities ) or at worst forked it. > Hmmm, I fear, Linus just would have been one more personality, or his version would have been one more fork in the quickly branching, BSD tree. = The real problem IMO was the lawsuit which happened shortly after 368BSD went into the wild. Let me tell you about my own experience from the time. As I said, people like myself got scared that UNIX for a PC/386 would not be available. We had Minix, but it did not use the paging HW, whereas Linus' code did and we thought, Linus code was unencumbered (it wasn't/isn't, while* it is a rewrite*, it is still based on the AT&T IP - but again that's a different part of story). I know I had personally had bought Minix myself for whatever it was (??$70 IIRC) in a 'book' of N floppies from Prentiss-Hall. I was semi-happy because it was a rewrite of Unix and was better than DOS. But .... it was originally floppy only for the 16 bit 8088 (XT not the AT) and very, slow and had quite limited in functionality (it did have a C compiler and ed but no vi, and definitely not, sockets). At the time, at work, I had a copy of the WD 1003 controller documentation - which was the disk controller IBM had used for the AT. A lot of people doing hacking on PC Unix in those days did not have that document as it turned out. So one of the first things I did, was to hack together a Minix AT/IDE driver for my system and sent it back, maybe posted it to net.noise (I've forgotten). As I had known him my UCB days, shortly thereafter it went into the wild, Joilitz contacted me. He had tried to write his AT disk driver for his version via "reverse engineering" (the BIOS ROMs I think). Bill's original code worked to a point but had some issues and he was looking for some help. I had a Wyse 32:16, which was one of the first 386 based PCs. Hence, I got my copy of Bill's work via the secret address to download. We updated his driver with missing info I gave him (FWIW: Bill references this in the DDJ articles). Anyway, now I had a 'real UNIX' and it was BSD even, Minix was not only primarily floppy-based, but it was a V7 clone so the difference was remarkable. Then lawyers showed up.... I know I got scared and so did a lot of others. Linus has recently made his post, so we all jumped. The rest is history, although as I point out, it is likely world today would have been much different it AT&T had won the lawsuit. But they did not so that is a moot point. --000000000000d6c3c105912e9698 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On W= ed, Aug 28, 2019 at 10:10 AM Earl Baugh <earl.baugh@gmail.com> wrote:
One point/ direction nobody seems to have mentioned wa= s =E2=80=9Cwhat if Linus found out about BSD on PC hw=E2=80=9D?=C2=A0 From = what I=E2=80=99ve read he wasn=E2=80=99t aware of it, so perhaps a very dif= ferent outcome could have been
A couple of items.=C2=A0 Linus is on record as saying if he h= ad known about the 'magic FTP site' at UCB for 386BSD code download= , he would have obtained it [it is how most of us got it in those days].=C2= =A0 The sad part is that his University was licensed for it from UCB, so they could have gotten the code is they had asked for it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0= But as Larry has pointed out, many Universities in those days took a fairly= restrictive view of access to the Unix sources; so it's still now clea= r if Linus himself would have gotten a copy.


=E2=80=94 what if Linus did find out about it and then ultimat= ely took it over ( removing the caustic personalities ) or at worst forked = it.=C2=A0
Hmmm, I= fear, Linus just would have been one more personality, or his v= ersion would have been one more fork in the quickly branching, BSD tree.=C2= =A0=C2=A0The real problem IMO was the = lawsuit which happened shortly after 368BSD went into the wild.=C2=A0=C2=A0= Let me tell you about my own experience from the time.

As I said, people like myself got s= cared that UNIX for a PC/386 would not be available.=C2=A0 We had Minix, bu= t it did not use the paging HW, whereas Linus' code did and we thou= ght, Linus code was unencumbered (it wasn't/isn't, while it i= s a rewrite, it is still based on the AT&T IP - but again that&= #39;s a different part of story).

I know I ha= d personally had bought Minix myself for whatever it was (??$70 IIRC) in a = 'book' of N floppies from Prentiss-Hall.=C2=A0 I was semi-happy bec= ause it was a rewrite of Unix and was better than DOS.=C2=A0 But .... it wa= s originally floppy only for the 16 bit 8088 (XT not the AT) and very, slow= and had quite limited in functionality (it did have a C compiler and ed bu= t no vi, and definitely not, sockets).=C2=A0 At the time, at work, I had a = copy of the WD 1003 controller documentation - which was the disk controlle= r IBM had used for the AT.=C2=A0 A lot of people doing hacking on PC Unix i= n those days did not have that document as it turned out.

So one of the first things I did, was to hack together a M= inix AT/IDE driver for my system and sent it back, maybe posted it to net.n= oise (I've forgotten).=C2=A0 =C2=A0As I had known him my UCB days, shor= tly thereafter it went into the wild, Joilitz contacted me.=C2=A0 He had tr= ied to write his AT disk driver for his version via "reverse engineeri= ng" (the BIOS ROMs I think).=C2=A0 Bill's original code worked to = a point but had some issues and he was looking for some help.=C2=A0 I had a= Wyse 32:16, which was one of the first 386 based PCs.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Hence, I= got my copy of Bill's work via the secret address to download.=C2=A0 W= e updated his driver with missing info I gave him (FWIW: Bill=C2=A0references this in th= e DDJ articles).=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Anyway, now I had a 'real UNIX&#= 39; and it was BSD even, Minix was not only primarily floppy-based,=C2=A0but it was a V7 clone so the difference was remarka= ble.

=
Then lawyers showed up....=C2= =A0

<= /div>
I know I got scared and so did a lot = of others.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Linus has recently made his post, so we all jumped.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0The rest is history, although as I point out, it is likely wor= ld today would have been much different it AT&T had won the lawsuit.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0But they did not so that is a moot point.
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