From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 9788ef3a for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 19:19:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id F3D9F9C14E; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 05:19:40 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C33AC9C0FD; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 05:19:18 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="T1ZtWH6q"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id CA6C59C0FD; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 05:19:16 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f178.google.com (mail-qt1-f178.google.com [209.85.160.178]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E39C9BFE6 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 05:19:15 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f178.google.com with SMTP id e12so689507qto.2 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 11:19:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=CxCfmpox8cAOSGYSf4U2+ZvNLhfKX4pQRyK5JtvRCxA=; b=T1ZtWH6q8k2vhkS6RKLVYDesKDDLiioSTh6VenWLRNOvTgT+7cA9CjGw4JLTHEOkY5 HUjxRBwAWzIhYTZ88Jp1erGMctY7YYv0VEoiXQL5LF1UO2uUAt/PQlTZknENmZuPH9Hp sHvThc6UAFj2pm5HxHrogPn/DDnhOt1pq8j2E= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=CxCfmpox8cAOSGYSf4U2+ZvNLhfKX4pQRyK5JtvRCxA=; b=ISECOgK6khNeQTQBndRypTM3OVEersmdL7tlQoP3FYHb/cD7Fo4TRh2o4Bog/kY6iR TV0iOU/CyojZYOdcPoAnQnc2FheWH7riEOoh0ilQ3dsIHUtdcYITlE8/P0tQRlKx1Duj 0mgk6CFaY0/mVCZaZJgm+gUmiC9SrdKlqHasUD/N1h1Nvky5w51zdUQYIVmx4MJUW/o8 7PfT7OXW0GCihs4LWJAEgkfSUdYgPnVi4nPcKOM1x84zjLkR1JPX/ong+F9DEHvSSxAy BMPe9FXq/Wf23w8vsNMaxhSgz2K9bMBqyUcScNtrfpNGGdRYFl8hSi6bGhEfWrQIA95+ JIyA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWiaBLbNOFhSz4cBR8Y31DHrRW8inF9dne3Jn97jsCQWQqJNgh/ 4fA549ttPjQOLfN7x8ECtptwDy4QGOfZi8D5SiCcXg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxiddnBmT7wzWRdZ/5AKCkWL+p1wnvYSHf4m/6+EKBTEHJz8MjQQvBxSaMi1TRif4zZmiRs/OvvaanivoKb1cQ= X-Received: by 2002:aed:2202:: with SMTP id n2mr968861qtc.4.1579547954636; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 11:19:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200117195908.GF15253@ancienthardware.org> <20200118035051.GC481935@mit.edu> <20200118041913.GB67053@eureka.lemis.com> <20200119024900.GA15860@mit.edu> <20200119031225.GI67053@eureka.lemis.com> <20200119035808.GK67053@eureka.lemis.com> <20200119132551.GC15860@mit.edu> <20200120180432.GJ28686@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20200120180432.GJ28686@mcvoy.com> From: Clem Cole Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 14:18:48 -0500 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bdfad5059c972a7d" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question") X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000bdfad5059c972a7d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 1:04 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > I know those Nat Semi chips very well, or did at the time. I so wanted to > love those chips, the instruction set felt like whoever did the PDP-11 > did the 320xx chips. It was clear, the NS folks, like the Moto folk, knew the PDP-11 and VAX. It was a nice architecture and should been a win but... > But they couldn't produce chips without bugs and that killed them. I really think it was they were the third man and too late. Between Apple on the Mac and Apollo, Masscomp and eventually Sun, the 68000 and later 68010 had volume. 8086 family had volume with the PC. As Jon can tell you, Tektronix decided the use the NS chip and tossed a working 68000/68010 design (Magnolia - which would later ship at 4400) for a completely new workstation. But it meant starting from scratch. Big mistake... If they had just shipped Magnolia at the beginning, I'm not sure either Masscomp or Sun would have been birthed. Apollo and Triple-Drip were already there, but thy would have had the first UNIX workstation on the market, with a super graphics system. Sigh.... > It's a crying shame, I liked the instruction set > WAY better than the VAX. The VAX seemed really messing compared to > the PDP-11, the 320xx chips seemed clean. Might be rose colored > glasses but that's my memory. I would not say way better, but much cleaner. To DEC's credit, the idea of the VAX was to take the PDP-11 forward and keep things running. Funny, DG did that better in the end, but that was the idea at least. NS was trying to make the VAX without the rough edges, mistakes DEC had made. Prof. Yale Patt consulted on both Instructions sets BTW, which may be why they look so similar. --000000000000bdfad5059c972a7d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On M= on, Jan 20, 2020 at 1:04 PM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
I know those Nat Semi chips ver= y well, or did at the time.=C2=A0 I so wanted to
love those chips, the instruction set felt like whoever did the PDP-11
did the 320xx chips.
It = was clear, the NS folks, like the=C2=A0Moto folk, knew the PDP-11 and VAX.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0It was a nice architecture and should been a win but...=

=C2=A0
But they couldn't produce chips without= bugs and that killed them.=C2=A0
I really think it was they were the third man and too= late.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Between Apple = on the Mac and Apollo, Masscomp and eventually Sun, the 68000 and later 680= 10 had volume.=C2=A0 =C2=A08086 family had volume with the PC.

As Jon can tell you, Tektronix decided the use the NS= chip and tossed a working 68000/68010 design (Magnolia - which would later= ship at 4400) for a completely new workstation.=C2=A0 But it meant startin= g from scratch.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Big mistake...=C2=A0

If they had just shipped Magnolia at the beginning, I'm not sur= e either Masscomp or Sun would have been birthed.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Apollo and Tr= iple-Drip were already there, but thy would have had the first UNIX worksta= tion on the market, with a super graphics system.=C2=A0 Sigh....

=C2=A0
It's a crying shame, I liked t= he instruction set
WAY better than the VAX.=C2=A0 The VAX seemed really messing compared to the PDP-11, the 320xx chips seemed clean.=C2=A0 Might be rose colored
glasses but that's my memory.
I would not say way better, but much cleaner.=C2=A0 T= o DEC's credit, the idea of the VAX was to take the PDP-11 forward and = keep things running.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Funny, DG did that better in the end, but = that was the idea at least.=C2=A0 =C2=A0NS was trying to make the VAX witho= ut the rough edges, mistakes DEC had made.=C2=A0 Prof. Yale Patt consulted = on both Instructions sets BTW, which may be why they look so similar.
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