From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 02a56250 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 19:52:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 4C0B69C13A; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 05:52:42 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A8029C0FD; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 05:52:21 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="ON9U4Zv0"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 56D619C0FD; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 05:52:20 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qv1-f67.google.com (mail-qv1-f67.google.com [209.85.219.67]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7E649BFE6 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 05:52:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qv1-f67.google.com with SMTP id p2so338099qvo.10 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 11:52:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DSV5UIpsjvB04mVM5jdiYzNqtMjzcby9WM5fa/PAuUw=; b=ON9U4Zv05DOXT5ZgqSH5ubSQLRIBz341PAlMOykyJWnb26sVjeqhKqX5Xsn0aTjNsa UZwA4RQoVAlUPLpNxg6aLqDRCTFEqC6rR8zMcliZ1aCairrXYL0GXN5s9R79ojLTmJIM co2hq1tcZNboJYAGt4r8kqeze6qs/pPcTssE8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DSV5UIpsjvB04mVM5jdiYzNqtMjzcby9WM5fa/PAuUw=; b=WvBsuAakJzhSp6sOctnPbCGS8FMBeGw+c6M/4dXTvluYVSCTKw5zc5vNnlibZJyJXt O3KXPJFeOzVw70otkLR/vBxf80zSBoljZDpnk93hDMB8KTia+i1En5xFMpO+PqteSfbg BLWaaIAR08ZUklDI4wqFcpuF0aATx3u4yZ6KfU67bRvf91+XhkRKxgKTCZUkD7Jh99f1 WTX32CX+NJ9vddYVOcDvsIkaoMotZ11jNArM+mH5hsWffzNi4gYfDK7jYlZpsvP+dTBc hX4zwicGuMfUsKCmxPGevEMeUdWJQH5EEIEYOH/39c+6SOnn5V1xeEteSWE+W7d3GOsc zViA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWs6ojQLlTi8jg7zkdaVJkBuf4g6xXe0I0Cao9hPy1ENVbq6c5y hiQHd/oaKd+LnUjf9MbSs9waICw9M0wxiINaE2iu1A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyGtEE33rRmq+iI+nhZ+fyC3JgtIhaeE5PoXlWM210RLlFpw5eNtogymnd+FW3yIZ+csJnpPQgVQlSHhXrWba8= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:ab13:: with SMTP id h19mr1343109qvb.243.1579549938783; Mon, 20 Jan 2020 11:52:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200117195908.GF15253@ancienthardware.org> <20200118035051.GC481935@mit.edu> <20200118041913.GB67053@eureka.lemis.com> <20200119024900.GA15860@mit.edu> <20200119031225.GI67053@eureka.lemis.com> <20200119035808.GK67053@eureka.lemis.com> <20200119132551.GC15860@mit.edu> <20200120190900.GH15860@mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20200120190900.GH15860@mit.edu> From: Clem Cole Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 14:51:52 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Theodore Y. Ts'o" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000001a896059c97a1b5" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Early Linux and BSD (was: On the origins of Linux - "an academic question") X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000001a896059c97a1b5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Jan 20, 2020 at 2:10 PM Theodore Y. Ts'o wrote: > .... which is dated July 1992, and describes a "launch" of 386BSD Ouch.... this is why people get confused. I'm probably not helping by not being precise enough. 386/Net/Free/OpenBSD as >>projects<< are different from the original 386 work that Bill and Lynn did to get it running on the first 386 and get that code back into the CRSG project. The 386 was released in 1985 by Intel. A number of firms started to use it. Wikipedia says Compaw was first (The Compaq Deskpro 386/25 was '89 according to google and we used a Wyse 32:16 at Stellar before that). Bill Jolitz did is work originally on a Multibus based 386 from Intel (using his NS system to bootstrap) and moved it to the PC (I thought a Deskpro) shortly after it started to ship. Most of us call that work '386BSD' but it was 4.X BSD that booted on a 386 based PC and not really what you are discussing. These bits are/were the 'hidden' ftp - which is not to be confused with the first BSD 'distro' for the 386 which would be much more public, BTW: The original BSD on a 386, install was very rough. Bill had created the boot floppies on his NS system. You had a use a DOS program to create them via an image copy and the boot was really funky. As I said, the original AT driver was wrong, and kept getting hosed until I fixed it when I was consulting for NCR (on their 386 system in 1989). IIRC Jolitz had created it by looking at that Minx AT driver and made some guess. I had (think I still have) the WD1003 documents, so I knew what the registers really looked like and it was not handling some error conditions IIRC. And the naming is really the root of the whole argument BTW.... BSD 4.x for a 386 based system *vs.* a real distribution. Bill Jolitz tried to make a better release for a BSD on a 386 (*a.k.a.* 386BSD) The install for a PC/386 improved. IIRC, Intel had paid CMU to do some work as part of Andrew and the Mach stuff (Bob Barron was the author of this I believe)., They wrote a version fdisk, and a bunch of things to allow dual booting and some other tools that ran on DOS. I don't remember how, but Bill Jolitz got that code and very early on the BSD 386 port used it - probably as part of the CMU/Mach to CSRG push/intermixing. And later on yet to Jordan's credit, and it was after Linux, NetBSD, *etc* was all there, that FreeBSD, completely redid the install scripts and made the system that pretty much is the model for all current PC based systems now. In fact, around that time I had started work with Linux and one of the things liked about FreeBSD 1.x was the install compared to the original Linus package (although I had an early Slackware pretty earlier in my Linux time and that improved things). I think your comment and about the healthy competition was true, each team was trying to do better. --00000000000001a896059c97a1b5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On M= on, Jan 20, 2020 at 2:10 PM Theodore Y. Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu> wrote:
.... which is date= d July 1992, and describes a "launch" of 386BSD=
Ouch....=C2=A0 this is why pe= ople get confused. I'm probably not helping by not being precise enough= .

386/Net/Free/OpenBSD as >>project= s<< are different from the original 386 work that Bill and Lynn did t= o get it running on the first 386 and get that code back into the CRSG proj= ect.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The 386 was released in 1985 by Intel.=C2=A0 A number of f= irms started to use it.=C2=A0 Wikipedia says Compaw was first (The Compaq D= eskpro 386/25 was '89 according to google and we used a Wyse 32:16 at S= tellar before that).=C2=A0 Bill Jolitz did is work originally on a Multibus= based 386 from Intel (using his NS system to bootstrap) and moved it to th= e PC (I thought a Deskpro) shortly after it started to ship.<= /div>

Most of us call=C2=A0that wo= rk '386BSD' but it was 4.X BSD that booted on a 386 based PC= and not really what you are discussing.=C2=A0 These bits are/we= re the 'hidden' ftp - which is not to be confused with the first BS= D 'distro' for the 386 which would be much more public,
<= /div>

BTW: The original BSD on a 386, install was very rough.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0Bill had created the boot floppies on his NS system.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0You had a use a DOS program to create them via an image copy and the boo= t was really funky.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As I said, the original AT driver was wrong= , and kept getting hosed until I fixed it when I was consulting for NCR (on= their 386 system in 1989).=C2=A0 =C2=A0IIRC Jolitz had created it by looki= ng at that Minx AT driver and made some guess.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I had (think I s= till have) the WD1003 documents, so I knew what the registers really looked= like and it was not handling some error conditions IIRC.

And the naming is really the root of the whole argument BT= W....=C2=A0 =C2=A0BSD 4.x for a 386 based system vs. a real distribu= tion.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Bill Jolitz tried to make a better release for a BSD on a= 386 (a.k.a. 386BSD)=C2=A0 The install for a PC/386 improved. IIRC, = Intel had paid CMU to do some work as part of Andrew and the Mach stuff (Bo= b Barron was the author of this I believe).,=C2=A0 =C2=A0They wrote a versi= on fdisk, and a bunch of things to allow dual booting and some other tools = that ran on DOS.=C2=A0 I don't remember how, but Bill Jolitz got that c= ode and very early on the BSD 386 port used it - probably as part of the CM= U/Mach to CSRG push/intermixing.
And later on yet to Jordan's c= redit, and it was after Linux, NetBSD, etc was all there, that FreeB= SD,=C2=A0completely redid the install scripts and made the system that pret= ty much is the model for all current PC based systems now.=C2=A0 =C2=A0In f= act, around that time I had started work with Linux and one of the things l= iked about FreeBSD 1.x was the install compared to the original=C2=A0 Linus= package (although I had an early Slackware pretty earlier in my Linux time= and that improved things).=C2=A0 I think your comment and about the health= y competition was true, each team was trying to do better.

=
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