From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 13077 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2021 20:18:33 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 16 Jul 2021 20:18:33 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D57469C833; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 06:18:31 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22EC39C7F1; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 06:18:02 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="IdgaauLK"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 6B2099C7F1; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 06:17:59 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f177.google.com (mail-qk1-f177.google.com [209.85.222.177]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C55C79C7F0 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 06:17:58 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f177.google.com with SMTP id s6so9919076qkc.8 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 13:17:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NAYaSAO7QHKsXXvOA9ZRT9j0xVl1DQQdOX8mbUivjyc=; b=IdgaauLKC4zRk5A3L1IlpxXIoLy4ycfajRp8rEr0ilUdjIqBm4RuWmwRFZ+22ZN/1m 81ZC1nmVCAUGzHKt1mbKHmnJ2PJZNkshqutqx1EMhRhB8wU0fACugXPu7LcP7lXoiM0i Xo6YoYSsl8znM7suBQ+n4vYSCiLQwH/CxCtA0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NAYaSAO7QHKsXXvOA9ZRT9j0xVl1DQQdOX8mbUivjyc=; b=MvnHwIlFUGQ1BkCU7Llge5d8b5uKX7frCg7tNuKReAze3YX6bqtVmuW/8pphzZZwIf xVY5Ogl9pDBLfsnxOg2Q2gxJCVgfSkv+ePI2nNERtJfKTvKKvzjDeAtrU7azHxIiCh5A +INaFXrUi773p8on7Yv7rDSVz4nIZ69fFfgPhkgWcUaW4zcdWy9okrRt1wZtdQjMpGhm tgfvoe71eOBJC4cZCX/wKqw3Cp0T3p+KCXE9TLcMHyPrt8u75GjI6tnxSW6xiIOQErJ2 FKWxixuVptfDRw+IDZl7wUAUdacVnA1Pf3bJeSVe8iKe74cDDyymxTSdqjDBoK0ZHYO9 SqTA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530GIHNZc9d5EC37jVWkmvndt8SDoBQW0x3+DPr08Vpdsd/xMe1d 2FlK9k0y3yyNwgQ1uiEWM4R30WqCjiWJnGHWCaEO/y+4iXED8w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyFFPY6z2LNhPk1FKZi1yPQrYUGlavipB6gHs6CyNRrCk+oFT9EpcoeUpcVYDaR+hKSiqykw0fUwgd3SGO1TSQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:749:: with SMTP id i9mr11698166qki.307.1626466677082; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 13:17:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <213a4c11-3ab2-4b4a-8d6b-b52105a19711@localhost> <5777F7E6-062B-4C5A-9C98-36FFE6AC3414@stdio.com> <20210716135639.GI12733@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 16:17:31 -0400 Message-ID: To: Kevin Bowling Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000086da1f05c74348c9" Subject: Re: [TUHS] 386BSD released X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society , Bakul Shah Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000086da1f05c74348c9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jul 16, 2021 at 3:08 PM Kevin Bowling wrote: > Yup was just going to say this is standard in the modern BSD network > drivers, looks like Clem says it's older. Absolutely -- I believe it was Rob's undergrad project at Brown that he brought to BBN. The first use, if I saw, was the 'portable IP/TCP' stack BBN did for HP/3000 and a couple of other systems. That code seems to have been lost. I have asked about it on the Internet history mailing list. I had a copy of it one time, but sadly I don't think I still do. IIRC The original PDP-11 IP implementation which ran on a couple of dedicated systems, whose names/function I frankly do not remember) was also based on a version of this code. I think it ran something like RT-11 or DOS-11 and then started the IP code -- basically RTR style today. Later it morphed into Rob's Vax BSD 4.1 specific stack, which we ran at UCB on a couple of the systems using 3M Xerox board. This latest until 4.1A and Joy's rewrite and I want to say we switched in Interlan 10M boards then. We have a couple of the 3Com boards, but because of the lack of buffering, they were a bear to use and stopped as soon as we got the Interlan one. Anyway, all of these IP/TCP stacks used Rob's mbuf code. Which was a blessing and a curse. By writing his own, he avoids huge changes/integration into the memory system, but it also helped to make BSD such a mess under the covers because there were so many private memory managers between the network, the I/O systems etc... As discussed previously on the TUHS list, the one thing Risner really did well had a uniform memory design. Later BSD's moved to Mach and tried to clean this up a little, but the network code was by then so screwed into Rob's mbuf scheme, it stayed around a long time. Werner -- what is the state of this these days in FreeBSD is it still there? > There are recent optimizations to help the CPU with prefetch, and some > ideas around vectors of mbufs. What's remarkable is the mbuf design > scales to > 200gbps in practice, it must feel great to design something like that so > long ago :) > Well, ask Rob :-) I've lost track of him since Stellar, and I think he I heard he left high tech but frankly don't know. Clem =E1=90=A7 --00000000000086da1f05c74348c9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Jul 16, 2021 at 3:08= PM Kevin Bowling <kevin.bow= ling@kev009.com> wrote:
Yup was just going to say this is standard in the modern BSD= network
drivers, looks like Clem says it's older.=C2=A0
Abs= olutely -- I believe it was Rob's undergrad=C2=A0project at Brown that = he brought to BBN.

The first use, if I saw,=C2=A0was t= he 'portable IP/TCP' stack=C2=A0 BBN did for HP/3000 and a couple o= f other systems.=C2=A0 That code seems to have been lost.=C2=A0 I have aske= d about it on the Internet history mailing list.=C2=A0 I had a copy of it o= ne time, but sadly I don't think I still do.=C2=A0 IIRC The original PD= P-11 IP implementation which ran on a couple of dedicated systems, whose=C2= =A0names/function I frankly do not remember) was also based on a version of= this code.=C2=A0 I think it ran something like RT-11 or DOS-11 and then st= arted the IP code -- basically RTR style today.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Later it morphe= d into Rob's Vax BSD=C2=A0 4.1 specific stack,=C2=A0 which we ran at UC= B on a couple of the systems using 3M Xerox board.=C2=A0 This latest=C2=A0u= ntil 4.1A and Joy's rewrite and I want to say we switched in Interlan 1= 0M boards then.=C2=A0 We have a couple of the=C2=A03Com boards,=C2=A0but be= cause of the=C2=A0lack of buffering, they were a bear to use and stopped as= soon as=C2=A0we got the=C2=A0Interlan one.=C2=A0


=
Anyway, all of these IP/TCP stacks used Rob's mbuf code.=C2=A0= Which was a blessing and a curse.=C2=A0 By writing his own, he avoids huge= changes/integration into the memory system, but it also helped to make BSD= such a mess under the covers because there were so many private memory man= agers between the=C2=A0network,=C2=A0the I/O systems etc...=C2=A0 As discus= sed previously on the TUHS list, the one thing Risner really did well had a= uniform memory design.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Later BSD's moved to Mach and tried= to clean this up a little, but the network code was by then so screwed int= o Rob's mbuf scheme, it stayed around a long time.=C2=A0 Werner -- what= is the state of this these days in FreeBSD is it still there?


=C2=A0
There are recent optimizations to help the CPU with = prefetch, and some ideas around vectors of mbufs.=C2=A0 What'= ;s remarkable is the mbuf design scales to
200gbps in practice, it must feel great to design something like that <= /span>so long ago :)
Well, ask Rob :-)=C2= =A0 I've lost track of him since Stellar, and I think he I heard he= left high tech but frankly don't know.

Clem
3D""=E1=90=A7
--00000000000086da1f05c74348c9--