From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 6903 invoked from network); 26 Jan 2023 16:31:07 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 26 Jan 2023 16:31:07 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEFEE42495; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 02:30:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vk1-f178.google.com (mail-vk1-f178.google.com [209.85.221.178]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90EE241BBF for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 02:30:40 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vk1-f178.google.com with SMTP id z190so1134985vka.4 for ; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 08:30:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=1PsSjr9reNVb+q2IR2bLywh5V+zB+e/w2GfnhFHO93A=; b=l0Nk2Na1spQHzv7dQMgSZ/Bafy6ICHcaPtASb/PZRYW4Qe/d18rTjojwYu4SjHbnl6 uy9jmvhZg+UG9IZtzVWG2jw/N4wNSXHvcD5OKp9RhkmWBbk1Ybv/gchJiXryaoN43Pc8 xMuIt/j8mQlZMXFtM6QPOd8Wco9kbbK2rUmXw= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=1PsSjr9reNVb+q2IR2bLywh5V+zB+e/w2GfnhFHO93A=; b=EXhi74XVgJZmEmSr2xvmUiVkXTI50nM1Qx01m5GyTqgTdjDShWthV9lc/jSJWwh+3+ eYs1h9DvjO4M85tifI7FuSkhoFesbaaTirTeUaTtDWiT81vhV9CXBBdlQGTxKTmuyx1b GKZH/Lq4o8QsDd9OQ5hOQeQLqqzpxb5MzGDuJI7Qnp2CNh0apJ4eUSyat4X234rhpuQP msFYO9kMmaDvaTbK2ukfF6/yudQP9KItR1X1r5B+g9wHFXOP/pNxjyH4rUoA2+qRMlsu /EZcj3zJ0A3I5zdbBuFCri7P4YoM+4cUMmTUbA+hHnqSAqW2DAugvQm5upihfF8M32F5 6hJg== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kpPfnTL1zx9zaBUNN+qUesBeqowmQbRB+ULInRogp6BN3UfmUfA cqb0rJXbt6sU9bgu1cjd4PS+1KtV0SDSDfoBa7i9F3V/tjlRUX9Znjw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXu+jqGle3HR2rKWD2OEqGOf0dgLYRyCOFE+KaBkQ9Vk+Ahrn1Sjb6kdNB3zFc0T7liXVPqDJg3Ho3H0TJTeqa0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:11b2:b0:3e2:c1e:a32b with SMTP id y18-20020a05612211b200b003e20c1ea32bmr3055278vkn.9.1674750579474; Thu, 26 Jan 2023 08:29:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> In-Reply-To: <0C5D8AF8-BAB2-48B5-854B-34E3A949DE50@planet.nl> From: Clem Cole Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2023 11:29:12 -0500 Message-ID: To: Paul Ruizendaal Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000609d9e05f32d41b7" Message-ID-Hash: ZRQGUGSUAWZPQJEIEN4EHZGPOCO5ADL5 X-Message-ID-Hash: ZRQGUGSUAWZPQJEIEN4EHZGPOCO5ADL5 X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Earliest UNIX Workstations? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000609d9e05f32d41b7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 10:58 AM Paul Ruizendaal wrote: > > As a result of the recent discussion on this list I=E2=80=99m trying to u= nderstand > the timeline of graphical computing on Unix, first of all in my preferred > time slot =E2=80=9975 -=E2=80=9985. > > When it comes to Bell Labs I=E2=80=99m aware of the following: > > - around 1975 the Labs worked on the Glance-G vector graphics terminal. > This was TSS-516 based with no Unix overlap I think. > - around the same time the Labs seem to have used the 1973 Dec VT11 vecto= r > graphics terminal; at least the surviving LSX Unix source has a driver fo= r > it > - in 1976 there was the Terak 8510; this ran primarily USCD pascal, but i= t > also ran LSX and/or MX (but maybe only much later) > In the famous picture of Ken and Dennis you see a Tek display connected to the 11/20. Simply during that time there were a number of graphics systems from the DVST (storage tubes) like Tek 4014 to Raster Systems like the GDPs we had at CMU. There really are too many to list. > - then it seems to jump 1981 and to the Blit. > - in 1984 there was MGR that was done at Bellcore > > Outside of the labs (but on Unix), I have: > > - I am not sure what graphics software ran on the SUN-1, but it must have > been something > Again - W was the windowing system for the Sun board, running on the V kernel. It was original envisioned as a very smart terminal to bigger systems. Remember it did not have an MMU to start with. Andy added and MMU and then eventually changed it to a 68010. VLSI Tech was born and eventual became Sun Micro Systems but that was a few years later. I have to believe W as moved to UNIX on the SUN Terminal and that would have been what Chris Kent and folks started with for the microVax - but I do not know for sure. > - Clem just mentioned the 1981 Tektronix Magnolia system > 1979/1980 actually -- Roger and I started that in summer of '79 and he wrote that a year later when we go Tek money. It was originall as 'g-job' we were building for ourselves. Our boss saw what were were doing and Roger got $10K to do a proposal -- that document was the result. I already had the basics of a compiler working by them (well sort of) and the beginning of a Unix port on the test board. Jon Steinhart may be remember some of this as they all visited us in the labs to see what we were doing. - Wikipedia says that X1 was 1984 and X11 was 1987; I=E2=80=99m not sure wh= en it > became Unix centered > - Sun=E2=80=99s NeWS arrived only in 1989, I think? > > Outside of Unix, in the microcomputer world there was a lot of cheap(er) > graphics hardware. Lot=E2=80=99s of stuff at 256 x 192 resolution, but up= to 512 x > 512 at the higher end. John Walker writes that the breakout product for > Autodesk was Interact (the precursor to AutoCAD). Initially developed for > S-100 bus systems it quickly moved to the PC. There was a lot of demand f= or > CAD at a 5K price point that did not exist at a 50K price point. > Not completely true... 1-4K for BW was possible (expensive) but available. I tend to believe that systems like E&S could do that. Many raster systems went to 1K -- again is was about cost. I've forgotten the resolution of the GDP2 but is was much higher -- it used a rather expensive HP display. The price of memory and price of the monitor tneded to dominate. Also the processor was not cheap -- a GDP2 had a dedicated PDP-11/20, but that was also try of things like GT40 and the similar systems of the time. =E1=90=A7 --000000000000609d9e05f32d41b7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Jan 26, 2023 at 10:5= 8 AM Paul Ruizendaal <pnr@planet.nl= > wrote:

As a result of the recent discussion on this list I=E2=80=99m trying to und= erstand the timeline of graphical computing on Unix, first of all in my pre= ferred time slot =E2=80=9975 -=E2=80=9985.

When it comes to Bell Labs I=E2=80=99m aware of the following:

- around 1975 the Labs worked on the Glance-G vector graphics terminal. Thi= s was TSS-516 based with no Unix overlap I think.
- around the same time the Labs seem to have used the 1973 Dec VT11 vector = graphics terminal; at least the surviving LSX Unix source has a driver for = it
- in 1976 there was the Terak 8510; this ran primarily USCD pascal, but it = also ran LSX and/or MX (but maybe only much later)
= =C2=A0In the famous picture of Ken and Dennis=C2=A0you see a Tek display co= nnected to the 11/20.
Simply during that time there were a number o= f graphics systems from the DVST (storage tubes) like Tek 4014 to Raster Sy= stems like the GDPs we had at CMU. There really are too many to list.
=
=C2=A0
Again - W was the windowing system fo= r the Sun board, running on the V kernel.=C2=A0 It was original envisioned = as a very smart terminal to bigger systems.=C2=A0 Remember it did not have = an MMU to start with.=C2=A0 Andy added and MMU and then eventually changed = it to a 68010.=C2=A0 VLSI Tech was born and eventual became Sun Micro Syste= ms but that was a few years later.=C2=A0 I have to believe W as moved to UN= IX on the SUN Terminal and that would have been what Chris Kent and folks s= tarted with for the microVax - but I do not know for sure.

<= div>
=C2=A0
- Clem just mentioned the 1981 Tektronix Magnolia system
1979/1980 actually -- Roger and I started that in summer of '79 and he= wrote that a year later when we go Tek money.=C2=A0 It was originall as &#= 39;g-job' we were building for ourselves.=C2=A0 Our boss saw what were = were doing and Roger got $10K to do a proposal -- that document was the res= ult.

I already had the basics of a compiler working by= them (well sort of) and the beginning of a Unix port on the test board. Jo= n Steinhart may be remember some of this as they all visited us in the labs= to see what we were doing.

- Wikipedia says that X1 was 1984 and X11 was 1987; I=E2=80=99m not sure wh= en it became Unix centered
- Sun=E2=80=99s NeWS arrived only in 1989, I think?

Outside of Unix, in the microcomputer world there was a lot of cheap(er) gr= aphics hardware. Lot=E2=80=99s of stuff at 256 x 192 resolution, but up to = 512 x 512 at the higher end. John Walker writes that the breakout product f= or Autodesk was Interact (the precursor to AutoCAD). Initially developed fo= r S-100 bus systems it quickly moved to the PC. There was a lot of demand f= or CAD at a 5K price point that did not exist at a 50K price point.
Not completely true...=C2=A0 1-4K for BW was p= ossible (expensive) but available.=C2=A0 I=C2=A0 tend to believe that syste= ms like E&S could do that. Many raster systems went to 1K -- again is w= as about cost. I've forgotten the resolution of the GDP2 but is was muc= h higher -- it used a rather expensive HP display.=C2=A0 The price of memor= y and price of the monitor tneded to dominate. Also the processor was not c= heap -- a GDP2 had a dedicated PDP-11/20, but that was also try of things l= ike GT40 and the similar=C2=A0systems of the time.
=
3D""=E1=90=A7
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