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From: Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com>
To: Lars Brinkhoff <lars@nocrew.org>
Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society <tuhs@tuhs.org>
Subject: Re: [TUHS] earliest Unix roff
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 09:42:56 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAC20D2MBHSddOkjPUvat3GeF14-+oa2rMoppgFChzqOX+eUYpQ@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <7wd0g0o2a0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

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On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 8:26 AM Lars Brinkhoff <lars@nocrew.org> wrote:

> However, please note that more(1) also was inspired by, almost copied
> from, ITS.  Certainly the prompt --More-- is.
>

Absolutely.  A friend of mine/fellow UCB grad student, Eric Shienbrood,
wrote it.  He was a MIT undergrad. And Eric happily said it was modeled
from ITS.
And before, Eric wrote it, UNIX lacked anything like it.   Which to me is
fine, t*aking an idea from another system to add a new feature that is
lacking.*

What irks me is the blatant force-feeding of any system to the users, be it
ITS, UNIX or Windows into another.   It's ok to offer an alternative
interface, but when the system has a mechanism, your tools need to be *socially
compliant* with it, not try to make 'those users become like me.'
 Frankly, that is a pretty arrogant behavior. Yes, I know the argument is
two fold.  GNU is not UNIX and we wrote it (he who has the gold, gets to
rule).

BTW:  If it makes you feel better, I've been fighting this attitude at a
number of places, particularly Intel, for years.   For instance, our dev
tools folks wrote their own Installer 'because it was easier for them and
they could use it everywhere').   That's a no-no.  If you have Windows
product, you must use Microsoft's installer, if you have a Mac, you use
what Apple gives you, if you have VMS, you used the (wretched) setld, or in
this case, for Linux its rpm/yum et al.; etc.     But they had their own
'installer group' and it was easier for >>them<< than for the users.

I think the rule of 'least astonishment' is what needs to be the high order
bit when building tools for people.   Again, offering emacs (or any other
ITS tool) is fine, but when the new tool is installed on Windows/UNIX/Mac
et.. it needs to behave itself with the rest of the system, particularly if
there is already a mechanism in place to do a support function.

Simply, I would not mind info(gnu) and texinfo(gnu) if there was a way to
created man pages (or Windows / Mac help).  But having a man page that
basically says, see figure one
<https://www.dourish.com/goodies/see-figure-1.html> is not cool.

my 2 cents from a grumpy old guy....
Clem

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  reply	other threads:[~2019-09-16 13:43 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 148+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2019-09-13  3:20 [TUHS] My EuroBSDcon talk (preview for commentary) Warner Losh
2019-09-13  9:03 ` Branden Robinson
2019-09-13 19:47 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-13 20:02   ` Clem Cole
2019-09-13 20:06     ` Clem Cole
2019-09-13 20:24       ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-13 20:43         ` Clem Cole
2019-09-13 20:53           ` Diomidis Spinellis
2019-09-13 21:45             ` Clem Cole
2019-09-13 22:13               ` [TUHS] earliest Unix roff Warren Toomey
2019-09-13 22:55                 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-14  2:02                   ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-14  2:44                     ` Warren Toomey
2019-09-15  2:56                       ` U'll Be King of the Stars
2019-09-15  6:54                         ` arnold
2019-09-15  7:01                           ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-15 16:17                             ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-15 17:23                               ` Ronald Natalie
2019-09-15 19:48                             ` Clem Cole
2019-09-15 21:16                               ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-15  7:32                           ` U'll Be King of the Stars
2019-09-15  7:46                             ` arnold
2019-09-15 19:37                           ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16  5:52                             ` arnold
2019-09-16 12:10                               ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16 12:26                                 ` Lars Brinkhoff
2019-09-16 13:42                                   ` Clem Cole [this message]
2019-09-16 14:54                                     ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-16 16:09                                     ` Paul Winalski
2019-09-16 22:05                                     ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-16 22:33                                       ` reed
2019-09-17  0:11                                         ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-17  0:02                                       ` Nemo Nusquam
2019-09-17  0:21                                         ` Arthur Krewat
2019-09-17 11:12                                         ` Thomas Paulsen
2019-09-17  0:46                                       ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16 13:13                                 ` Chet Ramey
2019-09-16 14:51                                 ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-16 14:57                                   ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16 15:14                                     ` Richard Salz
2019-09-16 15:48                                       ` Ronald Natalie
2019-09-16 16:10                                       ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-16 16:16                                         ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-16 16:26                                           ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-16 16:31                                             ` Richard Salz
2019-09-16 16:45                                               ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-16 17:19                                                 ` KatolaZ
2019-09-16 17:24                                                   ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-16 17:32                                                     ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-16 17:35                                                     ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16 17:37                                                   ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-16 18:09                                                     ` [TUHS] [OT] " KatolaZ
2019-09-16 18:19                                                       ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-16 18:04                                                   ` [TUHS] " Chet Ramey
2019-09-16 18:19                                                     ` KatolaZ
2019-09-16 23:24                                                     ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-16 17:24                                                 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16 17:00                                               ` Clem Cole
2019-09-17 11:20                                         ` Thomas Paulsen
2019-09-16 19:13                                       ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2019-09-16 19:31                                       ` Bakul Shah
2019-09-16 22:35                                     ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-17  7:53                                   ` arnold
2019-09-17 14:21                                     ` Clem Cole
2019-09-17 15:03                                       ` arnold
2019-09-17 15:58                                     ` Christopher Browne
2019-09-17 18:15                                       ` arnold
2019-09-17 18:32                                         ` Warner Losh
2019-09-18  0:42                                         ` Adam Thornton
2019-09-16 21:42                                 ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-16 21:48                                   ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-16 21:54                                     ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-16 21:59                                       ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-17  5:07                                         ` Lars Brinkhoff
2019-09-16 22:10                                       ` Bakul Shah
2019-09-17  0:16                                   ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2019-09-17  0:31                                     ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-17 12:20                                     ` David
2019-10-05 19:44                                 ` Michael Parson
2019-09-15 19:35                         ` Clem Cole
2019-09-15 20:49                           ` U'll Be King of the Stars
2019-09-16  6:20                             ` arnold
2019-09-16 12:13                               ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16 12:34                                 ` arnold
2019-09-16 14:52                                 ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-17  0:10                               ` [TUHS] O'Reilly groff macros (was: earliest Unix roff) Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2019-09-17  0:51                                 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-17  0:54                                   ` [TUHS] O'Reilly groff macros U'll Be King of the Stars
2019-09-17  1:03                                     ` Clem Cole
2019-09-17  1:41                                     ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey
2019-09-17  1:58                                       ` Clem cole
2019-09-15 19:27                       ` [TUHS] earliest Unix roff Clem Cole
2019-09-15 19:31                         ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-14  7:35               ` [TUHS] My EuroBSDcon talk (preview for commentary) Diomidis Spinellis
2019-09-13 21:31       ` Clem Cole
2019-09-17 19:29         ` Warner Losh
2019-09-17 20:17           ` Clem Cole
2019-09-17 19:18       ` Warner Losh
2019-09-17 20:13         ` Clem Cole
2019-09-13 20:06     ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-14  6:13   ` Wesley Parish
2019-09-15 21:46 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-15 23:25   ` Bakul Shah
2019-09-15 23:35     ` Clem cole
2019-09-16  1:42     ` Warner Losh
2019-09-16  1:52       ` Clem cole
2019-09-16  2:05         ` George Michaelson
2019-09-16  2:37           ` Bakul Shah
2019-09-16  3:29             ` [TUHS] INed/Rand Editor/Ned [was " Charles H. Sauer
2019-09-16 14:53               ` Clem Cole
2019-09-16 16:16                 ` Warner Losh
2019-09-16 20:21                   ` G. Branden Robinson
2019-09-16 20:47                     ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-16 22:33                       ` George Michaelson
2019-09-16 23:14                         ` G. Branden Robinson
2019-10-09  1:10                         ` Lyndon Nerenberg
2019-09-16 22:48                       ` [TUHS] better ways and termcap vs. terminfo " G. Branden Robinson
2019-09-17 11:46                     ` [TUHS] INed/Rand Editor/Ned [was Re: My EuroBSDcon talk (preview " Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-17 12:52                       ` G. Branden Robinson
2019-10-09  0:38                   ` Lyndon Nerenberg
2019-09-16  1:31   ` [TUHS] " William Pechter
2019-09-16  1:48     ` Clem cole
2019-09-16  2:24     ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-16  2:31       ` Toby Thain
2019-09-16  3:36   ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2019-09-15  2:45 [TUHS] earliest Unix roff Doug McIlroy
2019-09-15 22:07 Doug McIlroy
2019-09-17  0:20 ` Steve Johnson
2019-09-17  1:11   ` Arthur Krewat
2019-09-17  1:17     ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-17  1:26       ` Clem cole
2019-09-17  1:33         ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-17 22:39           ` Dave Horsfall
2019-09-17  1:36         ` Richard Salz
2019-09-17  1:57       ` Bakul Shah
2019-09-17  1:19   ` Bakul Shah
2019-09-19 18:10 Norman Wilson
2019-09-19 18:37 ` Clem Cole
2019-09-19 18:44   ` Jon Steinhart
2019-09-19 19:44 ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2019-09-19 20:38   ` John P. Linderman
2019-09-20 13:41     ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2019-09-20 15:03       ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2019-09-19 20:53 ` Bakul Shah
2019-09-19 18:42 Norman Wilson
2019-09-19 22:42 ` Rob Pike
2019-09-19 22:55   ` Bakul Shah
2019-09-19 18:50 [TUHS] [OT] " Norman Wilson
2019-09-19 19:00 ` Nemo Nusquam
2019-09-19 20:18   ` Larry McVoy
2019-09-19 20:42     ` [TUHS] " Andy Kosela

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