From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id cc92bad1 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 13:43:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 7F7CE9BDE0; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 23:43:47 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64BA294791; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 23:43:28 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="KH3x4fPd"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 6341094791; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 23:43:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wm1-f54.google.com (mail-wm1-f54.google.com [209.85.128.54]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 094F79478F for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 23:43:25 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wm1-f54.google.com with SMTP id b24so2108100wmj.5 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 06:43:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qoGOB93r1Zba/U4QUPYN90B8DXpcUn73MPawybH4eSg=; b=KH3x4fPd7WdwSVe+rhYRT7IOft+piC5QxIOjXliTrNRLcoOAMrDjIPwsv84DmnyDob z6PyVG3jYjU0I+qR35tCEVHTMbk3+pUGDBPDQ6e4RaIWHZookTL6hmSakBn8rTRoczOS FvL2vOqHlh8yWQpiuK1de6NexG9ImhZ7qhCEo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qoGOB93r1Zba/U4QUPYN90B8DXpcUn73MPawybH4eSg=; b=tuQ/zGa3z8uP5joTKL9a9BU7MmMJkgA6ts9PNb37xLCvtbjOExOnqw6DRCNZVMET5n zRnvjr4guHYZqAdCL9kTQBmr4FWFfx1ekN/qO5Nr8EZRt6STPT1/2OtkWZoGY888cxDc 1k2zcwHwwnqMWHC92Mxq9ejR6nQh9+4pM0vLosBygZ/1sXvoANFDSWRl8QTsoUTFg4oc 5sPjdORZprJiVc8v1xUHGGl8QLoIRjJF1B42TGJpEg4fiOrRflZg4keXo2o/hpZI4ZuR hFqPuPOb5b2BMs9yLAfbLVclIZ4C8srgC7xHCtkF5Dw51T7WLY7ilL5n0L5uLqOcFcuC WNkg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVyzQZ28EKWXjfh3hrIdE2Yp3F0ELdJ0+EVpIqnJ1Z0Ny4slkdK 4oB9uHO5MvI7Zn9gRF1kT7h8AGgilcBxlEGArlKQ1r1GRi0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxGfaK94YW3as3xIb/MEWfqHkwhy7QH70f5a2jzQa2Pjwwou+Z9uaj6Fh3cVDY7V2lCx94kMOraPffYeNY+idA= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:2d85:: with SMTP id t127mr15056533wmt.81.1568641403467; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 06:43:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201909132024.x8DKObEP013266@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <463d5cc4-9bef-9ac3-a680-a5161d664dc1@aueb.gr> <20190913221345.GA16129@minnie.tuhs.org> <20190914020240.GO2046@mcvoy.com> <20190914024433.GA19193@minnie.tuhs.org> <2e84c4d0-5239-b223-856d-00aacf8d3028@andrewnesbit.org> <201909150654.x8F6sChG021185@freefriends.org> <201909160552.x8G5qBYK025195@freefriends.org> <7wd0g0o2a0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: <7wd0g0o2a0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> From: Clem Cole Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 09:42:56 -0400 Message-ID: To: Lars Brinkhoff Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a245120592abc927" Subject: Re: [TUHS] earliest Unix roff X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000a245120592abc927 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 8:26 AM Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > However, please note that more(1) also was inspired by, almost copied > from, ITS. Certainly the prompt --More-- is. > Absolutely. A friend of mine/fellow UCB grad student, Eric Shienbrood, wrote it. He was a MIT undergrad. And Eric happily said it was modeled from ITS. And before, Eric wrote it, UNIX lacked anything like it. Which to me is fine, t*aking an idea from another system to add a new feature that is lacking.* What irks me is the blatant force-feeding of any system to the users, be it ITS, UNIX or Windows into another. It's ok to offer an alternative interface, but when the system has a mechanism, your tools need to be *socially compliant* with it, not try to make 'those users become like me.' Frankly, that is a pretty arrogant behavior. Yes, I know the argument is two fold. GNU is not UNIX and we wrote it (he who has the gold, gets to rule). BTW: If it makes you feel better, I've been fighting this attitude at a number of places, particularly Intel, for years. For instance, our dev tools folks wrote their own Installer 'because it was easier for them and they could use it everywhere'). That's a no-no. If you have Windows product, you must use Microsoft's installer, if you have a Mac, you use what Apple gives you, if you have VMS, you used the (wretched) setld, or in this case, for Linux its rpm/yum et al.; etc. But they had their own 'installer group' and it was easier for >>them<< than for the users. I think the rule of 'least astonishment' is what needs to be the high order bit when building tools for people. Again, offering emacs (or any other ITS tool) is fine, but when the new tool is installed on Windows/UNIX/Mac et.. it needs to behave itself with the rest of the system, particularly if there is already a mechanism in place to do a support function. Simply, I would not mind info(gnu) and texinfo(gnu) if there was a way to created man pages (or Windows / Mac help). But having a man page that basically says, see figure one is not cool. my 2 cents from a grumpy old guy.... Clem --000000000000a245120592abc927 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On M= on, Sep 16, 2019 at 8:26 AM Lars Brinkhoff <lars@nocrew.org> wrote:
However, please note t= hat more(1) also was inspired by, almost copied
from, ITS.=C2=A0 Certainly the prompt --More-- is.
<= div>
Abs= olutely.=C2=A0 A friend of mine/fellow UCB grad student, Eric Shienbrood, w= rote it.=C2=A0 He was a MIT undergrad. And Eric happily=C2=A0said it was mo= deled from ITS.
And before, Eric wro= te it, UNIX lacked anything like it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Which to me is fine, ta= king an idea from another system to add a new feature that is lacking.<= /font>

What irks me is the blatant=C2=A0force-feeding of any system to=C2= =A0the users, be it ITS, UNIX or Windows into another.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It's= ok to offer an alternative interface, but when the system has a mechanism,= your tools need to be socially compliant with it, not try to make &= #39;those users become like me.'=C2=A0 =C2=A0Frankly, that is a pretty = arrogant behavior. Yes, I know the argument is two fold.=C2=A0 GNU is not U= NIX and we wrote it (he who has the gold, gets to rule).

BTW:=C2=A0= If it makes you feel better, I've been fighting this attitude at a num= ber of places, particularly Intel, for=C2=A0years.=C2=A0 =C2=A0For instance= , our dev tools folks wrote their own Installer 'because it was easier = for them and they could use it everywhere').=C2=A0 =C2=A0That's a n= o-no.=C2=A0 If you have Windows product, you must use Microsoft's insta= ller, if you have a Mac, you use what Apple gives you, if you have VMS, you= used the (wretched) setld, or in this case, for Linux its rpm/yum et al.; = etc.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0But they had their own 'installer group' an= d it was easier for >>them<< than for the users.=C2=A0=C2=A0

I think the rule of 'least astonishment' is what needs to be = the high order bit when building tools for people.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Again, offer= ing emacs (or any other ITS tool) is fine, but when the new tool is install= ed on Windows/UNIX/Mac et.. it needs to behave itself with the rest of the = system, particularly=C2=A0if there is already a mechanism in place to do a = support function.

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif= ">Simply, I would not mind info(gnu) and texinfo(gn= u) if there was a way to created=C2=A0man pages (or Windows / Mac help).=C2= =A0 But having a man page that basically says, see figure one=C2=A0is not cool.

my 2 cents from a grumpy old guy....
Clem
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