From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 5fbc419a for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 22:39:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 25F9D9C209; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 08:39:30 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E62089C213; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 08:37:59 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="exwAf68E"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id F0FE79C201; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 08:37:29 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f180.google.com (mail-qk1-f180.google.com [209.85.222.180]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2C729C20F for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 08:37:24 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f180.google.com with SMTP id c17so4495877qkg.7 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 14:37:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=S3LeSsszon3qejGfW2ZCNocrO4VwY0Q/Mnaznr85sK8=; b=exwAf68EHd7iYz1jmePU0ER6CiiUiW/FPl8ZbyQaVdnmordREOJbvxpmhHh3YDFA5J iD1CIi1TmSxOJrRgiAg+D6g0Sogwk18seewd8bxVh3EXPo5rN8NbLuES7l5Gg8i16Nni 7L4FKscxY4ruGXyp+epi/Uyif/qfEWNcENthY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=S3LeSsszon3qejGfW2ZCNocrO4VwY0Q/Mnaznr85sK8=; b=TZH+CLWGqHlGBG4LNgy5LE2F6yj8x3IlBt43xzJ9bgL5Pcev+B19LtmJdtIzGHdqUA vUya6SokVWZ7/ML7sLAHha99EpPUJvIAxVbFhRT+HmuuvcnGKUvNmiHiFr36NH3ZuOzK zPpyd5go+NOXyUXPnliP27ZqK4eO87AuxNJUirARbEwpCRpDHG2I+arhvpWQJTLBepd6 1VzFd0TIlNrLx/zmK8mtryqtwXYI2L9I4JrEiIqbEQ98/ojCW8Wq1+qo9+vMPz7w1FcT zW1pyftrVw11AI9FpWJtyfIKGTVxcgwKyG0Fu26jKlvayWhm6SGYJDLMJ9cnkqj1XXB5 wSig== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXYWZUIBCwzO7k6SeSTGlM91Onfa5TsyjlCQ1vsHUDELCsVyJmn hCA11lz5KJRuaIheOvwDRbBI/iyPuoFubE4xuAHFZg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxtHg8OEo6RRk0FPPg3PZkWjhOWREpFZ5ny+94olq11kwNhAOvmAh/xjVzBQwbnH8ORMM9guyvPrHyuLYwdxxo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:6cc:: with SMTP id 12mr7076850qky.307.1579646243805; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 14:37:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 17:36:57 -0500 Message-ID: To: Chris Hanson Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003bafd1059cae0dc1" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Apollo Domain/OS X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000003bafd1059cae0dc1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 5:03 PM Chris Hanson wrote: > My understanding is that there=E2=80=99s a direct line from MULTICS to Pr= ime to > Apollo, Yes in some ways... > in that Apollo was founded by former Prime folks who took their philosoph= y > with them. > Actually not quite. MIT/Multics to Honeywell to Pr1me to Apollo (to Belmont/Stellar) Bill P and his former TA from MIT (Mike Spourer) actually wanted to break a little when they did Apollo. The whole ideas was too risky for Honeywell, so he created Pr1me. Apollo was too risky for Pr1me so he created Apollo. Stellar was too risky for Apollo so he created Belmont - a.k.a. Stellar. [By the way, I spoke to Bill over the holidays. He's a still the same]. > > Apollo=E2=80=99s operating system (Aegis, Domain, Domain/OS) had a lot of= good and > interesting ideas and was quite influential I absolutely agree. But a number new idea were from an influx of MIT and ex-DEC folks actually. And that that terrible sin called the registry that lives on winders came from Paul (some of us thought it was a bad idea then too BTW). IMO: The best idea was the typed file system and the ability to run user code specific with a file type. That's how IP, TCP, UDP are all implemented. Very, very cool. There is a USENIX paper that describes it I'll have to dig up the reference. It's worth reading. But I have never seen it implemented again as well. > A lot of what we take for granted today in distributed computing came via > Apollo more than anywhere else, as Apollo users and alumni took what they > learned to other systems. > Yes and no. I agree it was a wonderful intellectual playground for some very cool ideas. Some worked pretty well, but not all did. For example, as Larry said earlier today, the "twin'ed" or diskless nodes were awful (replace the S with C for what many of us think about them). But it got Sun to make them too and ended up being a great add-in disk business later. I refused at Masscomo and ended up losing war, even though the cost of a WS500 was less than a Sun2 with a disk, people bought Sun's diskless and then after they discovered they sucked, spent another 6K to buy a desk system for them (we lost for economics, but I was technically right - a.k.a. Cole's law of economics vs. sophisticated technology). Anyway, we (as a community) are better for having that system but other than the registry, I can think of little actual technology that we continue to use from Aegis. --0000000000003bafd1059cae0dc1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Jan 21, 2020 at 5:03= PM Chris Hanson <cmhanson= @eschatologist.net> wrote:
My understanding is that there=E2=80=99s a direct line fr= om MULTICS to Prime to Apollo,
Yes in some ways...
=C2=A0
in that Apollo was founded by former Prime folks who took their philoso= phy with them.
Actually not quite.=C2=A0 MIT/Multics to = Honeywell to Pr1me to Apollo (to Belmont/Stellar)=C2=A0 Bill P and his form= er TA from MIT (Mike Spourer) actually wanted to break a little when they d= id Apollo.=C2=A0 The whole ideas was too risky for Honeywell, so he created= Pr1me.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Apollo was too risky for Pr1me so he created Apollo.= =C2=A0 Stellar was too risky for Apollo so he created Belmont - a.k.a. Stel= lar.

[By the way, I spoke to Bill over the holidays.= =C2=A0 He's a still the same].

Apollo=E2=80=99s operating system (Aegis, Domain, Domain/OS) had a lot of g= ood and interesting ideas and was quite influential
I a= bsolutely agree.

But a number new idea were from an in= flux of MIT and ex-DEC folks actually.=C2=A0 And that that terrible sin cal= led the registry that lives on winders came from Paul (some of us thought i= t was a bad idea then too BTW).

IMO: The best idea was= the typed file system and the ability to run user code specific with a fil= e type.=C2=A0 That's how IP, TCP, UDP are all implemented.=C2=A0 Very, = very cool.=C2=A0 There is a USENIX paper that describes it I'll have to= dig up the reference.=C2=A0 It's worth reading.=C2=A0 But I have never= seen it implemented again as well.


=C2= =A0
A lot of what we= take for granted today in distributed computing came via Apollo more than = anywhere else, as Apollo users and alumni took what they learned to other s= ystems.
Yes and no.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I agree it was a w= onderful intellectual playground for some very cool ideas.=C2=A0= =C2=A0 Some worked pretty well, but not all did.=C2=A0 For example, as Larr= y said earlier today, the "twin'ed" or diskless nodes were aw= ful (replace the S with C for what many of us think about them).=C2=A0 But = it got Sun to make them too and ended up being a great add-in disk business= later.=C2=A0 I refused at Masscomo and ended up losing war, even though th= e cost of a WS500 was less than a Sun2 with a disk, people bought Sun's= diskless and then after they discovered they sucked, spent another 6K to b= uy a desk system for them (we lost for economics, but I was technically rig= ht - a.k.a. Cole's law of economics vs. sophisticated technology).

Anyway, we (as a community) are= better for having that system but other than the registry, I can think of = little actual technology that we continue to use from Aegis.
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