From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 16053 invoked from network); 20 Sep 2023 02:10:42 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 20 Sep 2023 02:10:42 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DCA2410D9; Wed, 20 Sep 2023 12:10:36 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-x92a.google.com (mail-ua1-x92a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::92a]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDED44094C for ; Wed, 20 Sep 2023 12:10:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-x92a.google.com with SMTP id a1e0cc1a2514c-7a512434bc9so295282241.0 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 2023 19:10:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1695175827; x=1695780627; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=qZEM/WA4MDHUNyO8I19SOENAvEY8jrbme8MuXylXu0s=; b=BuCdeW7h0exCZiiAArDIRPgmN5a9zzCGJkUqrhGVPPyVxxAG4QT0Sd7t5mrjIjJHJJ AM+LzFn+gKnOM4LjI602U8mJ8/F1rL/ll05FNP869e3mE9p2Wde+NPVljY9//Isv4Ar7 uLHgjjkpCICHLalAb7FqGqbnWBXt/PDHfAH50= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1695175827; x=1695780627; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=qZEM/WA4MDHUNyO8I19SOENAvEY8jrbme8MuXylXu0s=; b=QY9G+fTGIRjWPD5E5ybiTfqEQf94rkjZF777VbiNYBOMR0kBtmozko5rfb8fDeGsUU /BMUa02hJQQTLgYoWKUj5aL3HiJ70R1eK46o4DVwLJmlfF8BGP+ILDPl+PKSAz97oQ55 o/eh3vT9dHFtMvzn0061Pt0+aZ13syV4cwco6rlBULieUbUPzUv2HMnDzVgH9/Vux2MT 4HsC0WrK5NiZslzeovqZm/eNitx6gaf6EJsMXOarJEqick49S8Sr8d7HMyIG2YG4rQ2Y tpyOT5ZlXyA/82LVUppKCCasjY3NRLBHX58NiZ9nTzKpROTxlxbHOrI9pitegmVNjYaM +SbA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyYY1kN9DA3LoVjuKzOsydifwBcnDM5YW3ffGdpV5tEvuA1XD+H zkXkBKvgje7e0R4Hi58r5Wyp7kfIe0HElgIa9nGwPquZ820MEcXwJY2kcQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG2rULSbfwqiQQuBWc9+rqOy098zzqzw/25S1vZ2x+BIDYF0Yx0oC+6VMvjJmK8yY2tfj+78mWKGOm4yFt0X8E= X-Received: by 2002:a67:be05:0:b0:452:75be:26a4 with SMTP id x5-20020a67be05000000b0045275be26a4mr813896vsq.6.1695175827545; Tue, 19 Sep 2023 19:10:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4CmySC-mFud1dlrqfAq1itmNKoTWVi8cTuAqCvtUengKvv5CWEoYCFf6-I18dwf5BVSZWAxC-B6BP6Y1e0Gi_mlga344b5cxu5TlUCLXHeg=@protonmail.com> <20230919233925.GB28844@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20230919233925.GB28844@mcvoy.com> From: Clem Cole Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2023 21:09:51 -0500 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000087aaa0605c0e1c6" Message-ID-Hash: NIH4T547YQFXMJHBSA5EXNLNC25DYGHZ X-Message-ID-Hash: NIH4T547YQFXMJHBSA5EXNLNC25DYGHZ X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: segaloco , The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Project Idea: The UNIX Programmer's Manual: Heritage Edition List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000087aaa0605c0e1c6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 =E1=90=A7 On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 6:39=E2=80=AFPM Larry McVoy wrote: > One of the projects I thought I'd do in my retirement, but haven't done, > was to provide man page / paper as in "a paper", not tree paper, versions > of all the GNU info stuff. I could not be less thrilled with info, yeah > there are ways to deal, but it just isn't as good (to me) as how Unix did > docs. It's like they want to force emacs on us to read docs. > > I'd start with groff. > > So I'm a little off topic but if people wanted to work on that, I'd be > up for that project. It's not as big as what you are saying but it's > pretty big, I think we just start with something, see if we can get > debian/ubuntu to pick it up, lather, rinse repeat. In fact if we > just get the groff project to pick up our stuff, all the distros will > get that eventually. > > The one drawback I see is people might want to provide info and man > docs. My personal preference is that the info stuff goes away but I > have learned I don't get what I want. So there may be a period of > time where both need to be maintained. > > On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 08:32:15PM +0000, segaloco via TUHS wrote: > > I haven't known when or how to bring up this project idea, but figure I > might as well start putting feelers out since my Dragon Quest project is > starting to slow down and I might focus back on UNIX manual stuff. > > > > So something painfully missing from my and I'm sure plenty of other > folks' libraries is a nice, modern paper UNIX manual that takes the past > few decades into consideration. The GNU project, BSDs, etc. ship manpage= s > of course, and there's the POSIX manpages, but I'm a sucker for a good > print manual. Something I'm thinking of producing as a "deliverable" of > sorts from my documentation research is a new-age UNIX manual, derived as > closely as possible from the formal UNIX documentation lineages (so > Research, SysV, and BSD pages), but: > > > > 1. Including subsequent POSIX requirements > > 2. Including an informational section in each page with a little > history and some notes about current implementations, if applicable. Thi= s > would include notes about "dead on the vine" stuff like things plucked fr= om > the CB-UNIX, MERT/PG, and PWB lines. The history part could even be a > separate book, that way the manual itself could stay tight and focused. > This would also be a good place for luminaries to provide reflections on > their involvement in given pieces. > > > > One of the main questions that I have in mind is what the legal > landscape of producing such a thing would entail. At the very least, to > actually call it a UNIX Programmer's Manual, it would probably need to pa= ss > some sort of compliance with the materials The Open Group publishes. Tha= t > said, the ownership of the IP as opposed to the trademarks is a little le= ss > certain, so I would be a bit curious who all would be involved in > specifically getting copyright approval to publish anything that happened > the commercial line after the early 80s, so like new text produced after > 1982. I presume anything covered by the Caldera license at least could b= e > published at-cost, but not for a profit (which I'm not looking for anyway= .) > > > > Additionally, if possible, I'd love to run down some authorship > information and make sure folks who wrote stuff up over time are properly > credited, if not on each page ala OWNER at least in a Acknowledgements > section in the front. > > > > As far as production, I personally would want to do a run with a couple > of different cover styles, comb bound, maybe one echoing the original Bel= l > Laboratories UNIX User's Manual-style cover complete with Bell logo, > another using the original USENIX Beastie cover, etc. but that also then > calls into question more copyrights to coordinate, especially with the wa= y > the Bell logo is currently owned, that could get complicated. > > > > Anywho, anyone know of any such efforts like this? If I actually got > such a project going in earnest, would folks find themselves interested i= n > such a publication? In any case I do intend to start on a typesetter > sources version of this project sometime in the next year or so, but > ideally I would want it to blossom into something that could result in so= me > physical media. This idea isn't even half-baked yet by the way, so just > know I don't have a roadmap in place, it's just something I see being a > cool potential project over the coming years. > > > > - Matt G. > > -- > --- > Larry McVoy Retired to fishing > http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat > --000000000000087aaa0605c0e1c6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1
3D""=E1=90=A7

On Tue, Sep 19, 2= 023 at 6:39=E2=80=AFPM Larry McVoy <lm@m= cvoy.com> wrote:
One of the projects I thought I'd do in my retirement, but have= n't done,
was to provide man page / paper as in "a paper", not tree paper, = versions
of all the GNU info stuff.=C2=A0 I could not be less thrilled with info, ye= ah
there are ways to deal, but it just isn't as good (to me) as how Unix d= id
docs.=C2=A0 It's like they want to force emacs on us to read docs.

I'd start with groff.

So I'm a little off topic but if people wanted to work on that, I'd= be
up for that project.=C2=A0 It's not as big as what you are saying but i= t's
pretty big, I think we just start with something, see if we can get
debian/ubuntu to pick it up, lather, rinse repeat.=C2=A0 In fact if we
just get the groff project to pick up our stuff, all the distros will
get that eventually.

The one drawback I see is people might want to provide info and man
docs.=C2=A0 My personal preference is that the info stuff goes away but I have learned I don't get what I want.=C2=A0 So there may be a period of=
time where both need to be maintained.

On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 08:32:15PM +0000, segaloco via TUHS wrote:
> I haven't known when or how to bring up this project idea, but fig= ure I might as well start putting feelers out since my Dragon Quest project= is starting to slow down and I might focus back on UNIX manual stuff.
>
> So something painfully missing from my and I'm sure plenty of othe= r folks' libraries is a nice, modern paper UNIX manual that takes the p= ast few decades into consideration.=C2=A0 The GNU project, BSDs, etc. ship = manpages of course, and there's the POSIX manpages, but I'm a sucke= r for a good print manual.=C2=A0 Something I'm thinking of producing as= a "deliverable" of sorts from my documentation research is a new= -age UNIX manual, derived as closely as possible from the formal UNIX docum= entation lineages (so Research, SysV, and BSD pages), but:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01. Including subsequent POSIX requirements
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02. Including an informational section in each page = with a little history and some notes about current implementations, if appl= icable.=C2=A0 This would include notes about "dead on the vine" s= tuff like things plucked from the CB-UNIX, MERT/PG, and PWB lines.=C2=A0 Th= e history part could even be a separate book, that way the manual itself co= uld stay tight and focused.=C2=A0 This would also be a good place for lumin= aries to provide reflections on their involvement in given pieces.
>
> One of the main questions that I have in mind is what the legal landsc= ape of producing such a thing would entail.=C2=A0 At the very least, to act= ually call it a UNIX Programmer's Manual, it would probably need to pas= s some sort of compliance with the materials The Open Group publishes.=C2= =A0 That said, the ownership of the IP as opposed to the trademarks is a li= ttle less certain, so I would be a bit curious who all would be involved in= specifically getting copyright approval to publish anything that happened = the commercial line after the early 80s, so like new text produced after 19= 82.=C2=A0 I presume anything covered by the Caldera license at least could = be published at-cost, but not for a profit (which I'm not looking for a= nyway.)
>
> Additionally, if possible, I'd love to run down some authorship in= formation and make sure folks who wrote stuff up over time are properly cre= dited, if not on each page ala OWNER at least in a Acknowledgements section= in the front.
>
> As far as production, I personally would want to do a run with a coupl= e of different cover styles, comb bound, maybe one echoing the original Bel= l Laboratories UNIX User's Manual-style cover complete with Bell logo, = another using the original USENIX Beastie cover, etc. but that also then ca= lls into question more copyrights to coordinate, especially with the way th= e Bell logo is currently owned, that could get complicated.
>
> Anywho, anyone know of any such efforts like this?=C2=A0 If I actually= got such a project going in earnest, would folks find themselves intereste= d in such a publication?=C2=A0 In any case I do intend to start on a typese= tter sources version of this project sometime in the next year or so, but i= deally I would want it to blossom into something that could result in some = physical media.=C2=A0 This idea isn't even half-baked yet by the way, s= o just know I don't have a roadmap in place, it's just something I = see being a cool potential project over the coming years.
>
> - Matt G.

--
---
Larry McVoy=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Retired to fishing=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat
--000000000000087aaa0605c0e1c6--