From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 7422 invoked from network); 22 Nov 2020 01:18:51 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 22 Nov 2020 01:18:51 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 91A099B95E; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 11:18:47 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECD8D93F9F; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 11:18:11 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="HRR4iutT"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 7039B93F9F; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 11:18:08 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f177.google.com (mail-qk1-f177.google.com [209.85.222.177]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13EE993DAD for ; Sun, 22 Nov 2020 11:18:07 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f177.google.com with SMTP id q5so12826609qkc.12 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 2020 17:18:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=mTUikPS7hspHKlJiN3Qa8xOag05LTLHNdKJJlUrrIIo=; b=HRR4iutT6NhO+G1FfAvhz8Hw6GmdDO0HitXF3Ftw7LbtxQ+njygjEUq7go+3aFlKNr /VH31OXS6uVMcC8nFK/JsfwFGXPjFxM2QIQCZniedyxVsjazetXsgMax1YOtrCVyxyxK s6SYlQAD++10gD/41g8+0jmddLDnKzvDPSYKs= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=mTUikPS7hspHKlJiN3Qa8xOag05LTLHNdKJJlUrrIIo=; b=t5PTiyhMKAdirOLNkPhTsC1eDlS6xQ9DootHEfsfpwsbBxVIAD0e/+dAcj2SugkUok AnwYzdnYuhBRWpklPk2HOAX1hTud/CiIGJDE77RqEal4j83gFq0Tq1D2vEF83ZkSEgWL BwsOLn0aatFf/bO1fBLR6grjcA7ZIZLyK3Yd9df3FY2ZvY/y6KrbYEyDhRFUwyOT7r+J bMbF9eHGG3MMNby5AkU4Kxtgf57x5ct+IikMHqT4A5w8IBt1iAMoZ6G1p/SrTdS8uH01 AXQhUFnXMZtKpkcC2jHg4DJSs15WL7UP3EByBo4mImnbClWF0IZvAJ9b7g1kHiK622di zCcg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5316fYQdVUknZKPxNEUj1exX6UZi/93D/84n0jHvTzX9jiLSb/Xb mBJdUtb/5Lfyymiao9FYoQ6mwjzDAJAH3jSwQ6tekA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwNG16wQV4JgBnGOh1xWS2e9pkvBTmgxcJnq06BswbWuzB2gO/4QMqrF5j/ABC0B7vc//Q41FdJuGqloaiLPes= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:52c:: with SMTP id h12mr14522445qkh.307.1606007885801; Sat, 21 Nov 2020 17:18:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202011211750.0ALHolUI011814@freefriends.org> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2020 20:17:53 -0500 Message-ID: To: Gregg Levine Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008a3e0d05b4a7d9da" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Package Management X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Tuhs Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000008a3e0d05b4a7d9da Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" 1) No intention to slight debian in any way. 2) dpkg was definitely an improvement over FreeBSds ports scheme. But... In fact freebsd did have a pkg system for ports before that --- which was basically similar to 1983 SysIII scheme 3) also as I understand (and larry feel free to correct me here as a better chronicler of things Linux than I) but I believe that the big thing rpm added was the DB like DEC's setld and system Sun had used which us what I was refering too. Pls remember that I was trying to chronicle the basic ideas and some of the motivation which is what Henry asked. And that the original driver was to support ISVs installs. So I was trying to explain the history of what we did at the time. The be fair one of the more vocal people in the early 80s was Heinz who occasionally add color here. I remember Heinz trying to push us to an ABI and not stop at an API. Today most of the ISVs have abandoned Unix except for the Mac. Msft and the phones have taken that. And the package mngr has been replaced by the app store which has.much great use than any of the current Unix packaging schemes. Funny how the profit motive drove that. Working for one of the few ISVS that do package SW for Unix we basically support two schemes. Apple Mac installs and RPM because that is were the primary customer base has been. I'd not about goodness or being better or being first. It's economic (Larry and I bemoan this a lot). So pls don't take it as a comment about anything other than trying to answer as much of the early history as I could. Heinz, Jon, Larry you all lived this on the commercial side. Care to add anything? Clem On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 6:31 PM Gregg Levine wrote: > Hello! > I, myself normally run Slackware Linux. It uses package management in > the form of compressed tar files, and a flat file store of the names. > It also has a tool which when run will show the user what's there, and > what they do if need be. In fact Slackware predates Red Hat by about > four years. (Pat and his CS professor introduced themselves to one > much earlier one, which was SLS. Neither liked it, and the Prof was > convinced that Pat could do better.) > ----- > Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com > "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again." > > On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 1:54 PM wrote: > > > > Things were pretty much ad hoc. Commercial software likely came > > as tar/cpio tapes to install however the vendor wanted. Free software > > was from USENET in source code, so again, however people wanted. > > > > The AT&T Unix PC (7300 / 3B1) in the late 80s had a file format > > for installing software from floppy and tracked what was installed, > > but that was unique to it. > > > > Package managers as we know them today really became a big thing > > with Linux. Redhat's RPM was one of the earliest. > > > > My two cents; I'm sure others remember it differently. > > > > Arnold > > > > Henry Bent wrote: > > > > > Hello All, > > > > > > I know I have asked this before, but I am curious about any new > replies or > > > insight. How did package management start? Were sites keeping track > of > > > packages installed in a flat file that you could grep (as god intended) > > > somewhere, or were upgrades and additions simply done without > significant > > > announcement? At what point did someone decide, 'Hey, we need to have > a > > > central way to track additional software"? > > > > > > I know of DEC's setld and SGI's inst in the latter half of the '80s. > What > > > was the mechanism before that? > > > > > > -Henry > > > -- Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual --0000000000008a3e0d05b4a7d9da Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
1) No intention to slight debian in any way. =C2=A0
=
2) dpkg was definitely an improvement over FreeBSds ports= scheme. But... In fact freebsd did have a pkg system for ports before that= --- which was basically similar to 1983 SysIII scheme=C2=A0
3) also as I understand (and larry feel free to correct me here a= s a better chronicler of things Linux than I) but I believe that the big th= ing rpm added was the DB like DEC's setld and system Sun had used which= us what I was refering too. =C2=A0=C2=A0

=
Pls remember that I was trying to chronicle the basic ide= as and some of the motivation which is what Henry asked. =C2=A0 And that th= e original driver was to support ISVs installs.=C2=A0 So I was trying to ex= plain the history of what we did at the time. =C2=A0

The be fair one of the more vocal people in th= e early 80s was Heinz who occasionally add color here.=C2=A0 I remember Hei= nz trying to push us to an ABI and not stop at an API.=C2=A0

Today most of the ISVs have abandoned= Unix except for the Mac. Msft and the phones have taken that.=C2=A0 And th= e package mngr has been replaced by the app store which has.much great use = than any of the current Unix packaging schemes.=C2=A0 Funny how the profit = motive drove that. =C2=A0=C2=A0

Working for one of the few ISVS that do package SW for Unix we ba= sically support two schemes.=C2=A0 Apple Mac installs and RPM because that = is were the primary customer base has been. =C2=A0 I'd not about goodne= ss or being better or being first.=C2=A0 It's economic (Larry and I bem= oan this a lot).

So pls = don't take it as a comment about anything other than trying to answer a= s much of the early history as I could.

Heinz, Jon, Larry you all lived this on the commercial side= . =C2=A0 Care to add anything?

Clem

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 6:31 PM Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello!
I, myself normally run Slackware Linux. It uses package management in
the form of compressed tar files, and a flat file store of the names.
It also has a tool which when run will show the user what's there, and<= br> what they do if need be. In fact Slackware predates Red Hat by about
four years. (Pat and his CS professor introduced themselves to one
much earlier one, which was SLS. Neither liked it, and the Prof was
convinced that Pat could do better.)
-----
Gregg C Levine = gregg.drwho8@gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

On Sat, Nov 21, 2020 at 1:54 PM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
>
> Things were pretty much ad hoc.=C2=A0 Commercial software likely came<= br> > as tar/cpio tapes to install however the vendor wanted. Free software<= br> > was from USENET in source code, so again, however people wanted.
>
> The AT&T Unix PC (7300 / 3B1) in the late 80s had a file format > for installing software from floppy and tracked what was installed, > but that was unique to it.
>
> Package managers as we know them today really became a big thing
> with Linux. Redhat's RPM was one of the earliest.
>
> My two cents; I'm sure others remember it differently.
>
> Arnold
>
> Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello All,
> >
> > I know I have asked this before, but I am curious about any new r= eplies or
> > insight.=C2=A0 How did package management start?=C2=A0 Were sites= keeping track of
> > packages installed in a flat file that you could grep (as god int= ended)
> > somewhere, or were upgrades and additions simply done without sig= nificant
> > announcement?=C2=A0 At what point did someone decide, 'Hey, w= e need to have a
> > central way to track additional software"?
> >
> > I know of DEC's setld and SGI's inst in the latter half o= f the '80s.=C2=A0 What
> > was the mechanism before that?
> >
> > -Henry
>
--
Sent from a handheld expect more typos t= han usual
--0000000000008a3e0d05b4a7d9da--