From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 31111 invoked from network); 3 Jan 2023 21:54:02 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 3 Jan 2023 21:54:02 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E4E242526; Wed, 4 Jan 2023 07:53:28 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vk1-f174.google.com (mail-vk1-f174.google.com [209.85.221.174]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3929742521 for ; Wed, 4 Jan 2023 07:53:24 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vk1-f174.google.com with SMTP id i32so9330020vkr.12 for ; Tue, 03 Jan 2023 13:53:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=CRaCe2WhXBA7xhw8sLHgSKspF5CKli3nFRImtUC25kg=; b=Kh54Yp4rU+Nhfj+hLoIlk5NWmPlAv0qx4nt5uMygrVY3gPDvExHJqz6F6lWDnKLiNp HrxxzwSQnajWd7rLhS/2AWojvDW9wJVoVTPzp/++aUaiLoOuNJFg/lKHMeF575mA5aBT Ijc005iK5xi8BxYBlSEb/2sFOu+V/+x/jqyV0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=CRaCe2WhXBA7xhw8sLHgSKspF5CKli3nFRImtUC25kg=; b=vwhvBfxAKcgnt+zxiqp02QtIDkpE3tYw5dqK4WFtnYT1EomcEe3i404b864VuX5xfe klwiSyg8/vK7me0HU0f94b0IkH8uL1qQAPAgpeotET1hEQ4NH2zYS/9oO48oPyIBK5/M FEWL3E8yujNnigKX3qnBtMcG1vCSg54PThhhmtiELVVP9zBuf3q/HcCrcJ1Gc2dM29v7 SXL7XvNLidXDFbge+Y0oyfz+QU4NFnYKhiMBAquUhLAXuIToonvNlaB7GN+FqmLwrwan eYV3tLu8viVSkBmCmn7kjHg9Baf1+x/YI/Hp+voHK0hOLPrrJz1FGm+EOgbb4ruJS3yR 7UZw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kqZiNFHRahh4r8EQ0v4Qx5rgPuaN6zVCYzxNx380TYWUTJ9Cbtd xHb5HCoBa4uK68v6CnFHcny/F0IjWmE6fjHtEUY2hQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXvY3mq4gLHDeEiocaIuXdXRtqp4+W0zro0t6mg0RDRMqLY8ia9/uNal0SRD7PMzu77SguS7GGTYI6/3XHIylZs= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:c947:0:b0:3d3:41c:f82 with SMTP id z68-20020a1fc947000000b003d3041c0f82mr4393732vkf.1.1672782743285; Tue, 03 Jan 2023 13:52:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <52FB6638-AEFF-4A4F-8C2E-32089D577BA0@planet.nl> <464819f0-d2f6-2a60-6481-a194f4428b4d@case.edu> <20221230200246.GW5825@mcvoy.com> <88f83b4c-b3f9-ed87-b2fa-560fb369742a@makerlisp.com> <20221231035931.GG5825@mcvoy.com> <528f0c53-ccc2-88a1-5a7b-120362c648dd@mhorton.net> <20230102165120.GK25547@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2023 16:51:57 -0500 Message-ID: To: Warner Losh Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003349d505f16315f4" Message-ID-Hash: 6OPTD2WDF5V2RNC2IVKQB65FEFRQCAMO X-Message-ID-Hash: 6OPTD2WDF5V2RNC2IVKQB65FEFRQCAMO X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: A few comments on porting the Bourne shell List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000003349d505f16315f4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable typo: s/My complaining/Much complaining/ sigh.. dyslex-r-me =E1=90=A7 On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 4:47 PM Clem Cole wrote: > > Bring this back to TUHS relevance... > > On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 2:43 PM Warner Losh wrote: > >> The one caveat here is that people must understand the warning and that >> any change makes things better. There is nothing worse than just tossing= a >> cast in to brute force it, only to later discover it's the wrong cast or >> you needed a different semantic change. >> > Most certainly -- It's why I >>loved<< Gimpel's flex-e-lint product and > as Paul pointed out, Judy Ward's messages from the DEC Gem compiler - bot= h > were the two best I ever ran into in giving you real information about wh= at > was happening. > > I also tell a story from my DEC time. After the GEM compiler was > released and before most other vendors were 64-bits, the ISVs were first > starting to do their ports to Alpha. My complaining ensued. We would di= scover > from numerous ISVs that after the Alpha port was complete, their bug coun= t > dropped - why because the ISV's code has been kinda nasty and the older > compilers had been silent about it they had assumed the ILP32 model. > Alphas, using LP64, could not be. Judy would find things and say -- what > a minute -- you want me to do what with that and issued a fairly detailed > warning (which was the key - she explained what the issue was). Often > the 32 to 64-bit nature forced the programmers at the ISV's to rethink > how there were actually declaring things to make the code clearer, > simpler, better, *etc*. The classic rewrite never happens unless you > are forced too. > > I remember going to a Supercomputer conference and talking with the > developers at one the ISVs who I will not name. He thanks me. He said h= is > team has been arguing with their management for years to redo the UNIX > support library. The Tru64 port was what finally allowed them to do it. > But it took 9 months which pissed off his boss. But when it was completed= , > and pass all the tests on the Alpha, it just recompiled on Solaris, AIX, > and HP-UX - which had never happened before. He could not believe what a > great compiler we had. > > I've always said the Alpha was the greatest gift to Sun and Intel in the > commercial SW world because it forced the ISV to clean up their act befor= e > they ever saw those processors and Sun/Intel ports were piece of cake. = It > was not that porting to Alpha was difficult -- it was cleaning up your ow= n > mess. > > Remember we had already gone through this in the PDP-11 ILP16 to Vax > ILP32 transition but it is funny how history repeated itself. > =E1=90=A7 > --0000000000003349d505f16315f4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
typo: s/My complaining/<= font color=3D"#ff0000">Much complaining/
sigh.. dyslex-r-me<= /div>
=3D""=E1=90=A7

On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 4:47 PM Clem Cole <= clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

Bring this back to TUHS relevance...

On Tue, Jan = 3, 2023 at 2:43 PM Warner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote:
The one caveat here is tha= t people must understand the warning and that any change makes things bette= r. There is nothing worse than just tossing a cast in to brute force it, on= ly to later discover it's the wrong cast or you needed a different sema= ntic change.=C2=A0
Most certainly --= =C2=A0 =C2=A0It's why I >>loved<< Gimpel's flex-e-lint = product and as Paul pointed out, Judy Ward's messages=C2=A0from the DEC= Gem compiler - both were the two best I ever ran into in giving=C2=A0you r= eal information about what was happening.

<= /div>
I also tell a story from my DEC time.=C2=A0 =C2=A0After the G= EM compiler was released and before most other vendors were 64-bits, the IS= Vs=C2=A0were first starting to do their ports to Alpha.=C2=A0 =C2=A0My=C2= =A0complainin= g ensued.=C2=A0We=C2=A0would discover from numerous I= SVs that after the Alpha port was complete, their bug count dropped - why b= ecause the ISV's code has been kinda nasty and the older com= pilers=C2=A0had been=C2=A0silent about it they had assumed t= he ILP32 model.=C2=A0 Alphas, using LP64, could not be. = =C2=A0Judy would find things and say -- what a minute -- you want me to do = what with that and issued a fairly detailed warning (which= was the key - she explained what the issue was).=C2=A0 Often the 32= to 64-bit nature forced the programmers at the ISV's=C2=A0t= o rethink how there were actually declaring things to make the code clearer, simpl= er, better, etc.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The classic rewrite never happens unles= s you are forced too.

I remember going to a Supercomp= uter conference and talking with the developers at one the ISVs who I will = not name.=C2=A0 He thanks me.=C2=A0 He said his team has been arguing with = their management for years to redo the UNIX support library. The Tru64 port= was what finally allowed them to do it.=C2=A0 But it took 9 months which p= issed off his boss. But when it was completed, and pass all the tests on th= e Alpha, it just recompiled on Solaris, AIX, and HP-UX - which had never ha= ppened before. He could not believe what a great compiler we had.

I've always said=C2=A0the = Alpha was the greatest gift to Sun and Intel in the commercial=C2=A0SW worl= d because it forced the ISV to clean up their act before they ever saw thos= e processors and Sun/Intel ports were piece of cake.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It was not= that porting to Alpha was difficult -- it was=C2=A0cleaning up your own me= ss.

Remember we had already = gone=C2=A0through this in the PDP-11 ILP16 to Vax ILP32=C2=A0 transition bu= t it is funny how history repeated itself.
3D""=E1=90=A7
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