From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.7 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,URIBL_SBL_A autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 3249 invoked from network); 3 Feb 2021 16:54:57 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 3 Feb 2021 16:54:57 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id ADD619C2E5; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 02:54:55 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 110359BA43; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 02:54:16 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="mHonS92v"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id A03CE9BA43; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 02:54:13 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f172.google.com (mail-qk1-f172.google.com [209.85.222.172]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB4439BA40 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 2021 02:54:12 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f172.google.com with SMTP id x81so373112qkb.0 for ; Wed, 03 Feb 2021 08:54:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hZFVcgKZIKMNqBcl9L8yuKLOj8N5//aacLaAw2BJ1FE=; b=mHonS92vPq9PSCD+NuAEMq7N9Q23rLaXn4JghxfhCWmuOkI804jwx49p6cF89eWLrD LWNEJYVlFrFiGaiQpSAwCn5QQzFPCQ9x5mKxNImUev81QmZfojmIyXvnKOh3N2UN/Ihq r5rdldfKhwROwapTPd82NlZYx5y5XL61aESdg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hZFVcgKZIKMNqBcl9L8yuKLOj8N5//aacLaAw2BJ1FE=; b=CTyUE6AQcoxCHIsUWa2MqzY6L+anxNqFTel3pj033ilk/cKMR16+j8ncJD8oWcHvBU BNVBzJLdg2T3c1RllXvNpBIzSDuUtHTA7QvQlqNcCOCTQD2aGjDIHQDvNilx+tMZUlq4 o/l4hwCHv0LPjiRbiNZYF0OFZzbiDK1yfvIFKUdforHV+elC5y+3orHP+iEolrXCOzDe rCbQq/nVyS40U3Nh/dsolY1VcUC66PO0rPS+Ue0cYTGWkpo4suTBhMQTSoW20etTb2dk 33avoNYeF393s1z/sOSwEoDq/ceI3Au0kcFqxViQd0c47X/ZncqfCD9ul22lHoiuwmQ2 MyVw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530TK4FaytGXsChLyt9U+akDzCDFIzuUo3lTS8RwqOq56pqipgzW MKJyyJVu0OJ+rwS7iKIzQ7LjZzpgXdcelodFWS3dGw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxB5+lIhbKd8tXnA0btJAx+zJc0kJnzeE3vQsVNdvmngwADi+Fx1AMRDYnBok1vjMA94Vyx77akttK4+O5vFEc= X-Received: by 2002:a37:62cf:: with SMTP id w198mr3355643qkb.146.1612371251814; Wed, 03 Feb 2021 08:54:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202102030759.1137x7C2013543@freefriends.org> <202102030858.1138wuqd011051@freefriends.org> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Wed, 3 Feb 2021 11:53:45 -0500 Message-ID: To: Henry Bent Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b61b2b05ba716fbe" Subject: Re: [TUHS] AT&T 3B1 - Emulation available X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: UNIX Heritage Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000b61b2b05ba716fbe Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Interesting, were you at Sun as I did not think Moto allowed its customers to XC chips to end-users. But may just like Intel (which has also sort of special stuff if a customer like HP wants to use preproduction chips for early ships) Moto had some way to do that. I never was familiar with that side of it. FWIW: In Motorola's terminology, anything in >>their<< customer's hand was supposed to have a X part if it was pre-production (eXperimental) [Intel calls these B step devices]. The problem for what would become the 68000 (according to my friend Les Crudele - who was on the 3 or 4 people on the original team) since it was midnight job (*i.e.* not sanctioned and basically 'off book') it did not even have an assigned experimental part number. The MC6809 was the official replacement for the MC6800. It was not even an "A step" part - it literally ran as a test run at the fab, as a favor by a few folks. I wasn't there, but I have been under the impression that Nick, Tom and Les got back a couple of test wafers and had to cut the dice and mount them in the engineering lab. You have to understand the whole project was a reaction some of the engineers had to the MC6809 and made a bet with their boss they could build a PDP-11 on a die. Since DEC had just put CalData out of business when Ken O'Mundro did the CD500, Nick and Les were careful not to directly copy the ISA, just modeled it after them. They had an PDP-11/70 running ISC's Unix port and a bunch of custom fox terminals with the Rand Editor partially running in the terminal. The rest iof history as it were. When the chip worked the first time, the team had a few (??hundred??) dice that they bonded and the >>engineers<< gave them to a couple of their partners to see what they thought. I do not know which firms all got them, but I know some folks in IBM did, and we got 10 of them in Tek Labs Computer Research in late winter '79 IIRC. We were working on a 29000 bitslice system called Tina which eventually died. I got asked by my boss if I wanted to play with these chips we had been given that so far nobody had messed with. The documental was on a lineprinter paper (clearly nroff output BTW). Roger Bates and I started to build the personal computer for ourselves. Paul Blattner wrote an assembler for it, and I hacked on the Ritchie PDP-11 C compiler [as I have said in other posts, the code it generated sucked and even put out PDP-11 code in a few cases - like for FP which I never redid). Steve Glaser and I started hacking. This would eventually become Magnolia which turned into the Tek 4404 Smalltalk system a few years later. I'm not sure when the original chip got the XC series #, but somebody (??Roger??) got a bunch of stickers that we put them on the lids, I want to say June/July of 1979 but I might not be remembering everything. Before that, the chips had been marked with some date code by hand with a sharpie or equivalent and were in a clear plastic snap case between anti-static sponge. BTW: As an amusing side note as we were talking about 'BourneGol'' a while back. Roger (being ex-Xerox PARC and recently of the Dorado) was used to BCPL so he wrote a similar set of BCPL macros in C similar to Bourne's hack for sh and adb. The CAD tool he wrote to design the boards was written in it and ran originally on V7 with a Tek 4014, then was moved to Magnolia when we had a stable OS and his new graphics display. Clem =E1=90=A7 On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 10:33 AM Henry Bent wrote: > On Wed, 3 Feb 2021 at 09:59, Clem Cole wrote: > >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 5:14 AM Ed Bradford wrote: >> >>> Hay, Arnold, >>> >>> MC 68K was created in 1980 or thereabouts. We talked about 10's of >>> Megahertz, I think, in those times. >>> >> The original X series part was originally unnumbered but a sticker was >> later set for the lids that said X68000 (I had one on my desk - which wa= s >> used for the Tektronix Magnolia prototype).[1] The X series ran at 8 Mh= z, >> but the original released (distributed - MC68000) part was binned at 8 a= nd >> 10 as were the later versions with the updated paging microcode called >> the MC68010 a year later. When the 68020 was released Moto got the spe= eds >> up to 16Mhz and later 20. By the '040 I think they were running at 50MH= z >> >> > Was the "X" prefix always used for prototypes? I remember having an > XC68020 in something - might have been an Sun 3/60, or an early Mac IIcx? > > -Henry > > --000000000000b61b2b05ba716fbe Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Interesting, were you at Sun as I did not think Moto al= lowed its customers to XC chips to end-users.=C2=A0 But may just like Intel= (which has also sort of special stuff if a customer like=C2=A0HP wants to = use preproduction=C2=A0chips for early ships) Moto had some way to do that.= =C2=A0 I never was familiar with=C2=A0that side of it.

FWIW: In Motorola's terminology, anything in >>their<< cus= tomer's hand was supposed to have a X part if it was pre-production (eX= perimental) [Intel calls these B step devices].=C2=A0 =C2=A0The problem for= what would become the 68000 (according to my friend Les Crudele - who was = on the 3 or 4 people on the original team) since it was midnight job (i.= e. not sanctioned and basically 'off book') it did not even hav= e an assigned experimental part number.=C2=A0 The MC6809 was the official= =C2=A0replacement for the MC6800.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It was not even an "A st= ep" part - it literally ran as a test run at the fab, as a favor by a= =C2=A0few folks.=C2=A0 I wasn't there, but I have=C2=A0been under the i= mpression=C2=A0that Nick, Tom and Les got back a couple of test wafers=C2= =A0and had to cut the=C2=A0dice and mount them in the engineering lab.

You have to understand the whole project was a reaction so= me of the engineers had to the MC6809 and made a bet with their boss they c= ould build a PDP-11 on a die.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Since DEC had just put CalData ou= t of business when Ken O'Mundro did the CD500, Nick and Les were carefu= l not to directly copy the ISA, just modeled it after them.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The= y had an PDP-11/70 running ISC's Unix port and a bunch of custom fox te= rminals with the Rand Editor partially running in the terminal.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0The rest iof history as it were.

When the chip work= ed the first time, the=C2=A0team had a few (??hundred??) dice that they bon= ded and the >>engineers<< gave them to a couple of their partne= rs to see what they thought. I do not know which firms all got them, but I = know some folks in IBM did, and we got 10 of them in Tek Labs Computer Rese= arch in late=C2=A0winter '79 IIRC.=C2=A0 We were working on a 29000 bit= slice system called Tina which eventually died.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I got asked by = my boss if I wanted to play with these chips we had been given that=C2=A0so= far nobody had messed with.=C2=A0 The documental was on a lineprinter pape= r (clearly=C2=A0nroff output BTW).=C2=A0 =C2=A0Roger Bates and I started to= build the=C2=A0personal computer for ourselves.=C2=A0 Paul Blattner wrote = an assembler for it, and I hacked on the Ritchie PDP-11 C compiler [as I ha= ve said in other posts, the code it generated sucked and even put out PDP-1= 1 code in a few cases - like for FP which I never redid).=C2=A0 Steve Glase= r and I started hacking.=C2=A0 =C2=A0This would eventually become Magnolia which tu= rned into the Tek 4404 Smalltalk system a few years later.

I'm not sure when the=C2=A0original chip got the XC series #, but= somebody (??Roger??) got a bunch of stickers that we put them on the lids,= =C2=A0I want to say June/July of 1979 but I might not be remembering everyt= hing.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Before that, the chips had been marked with some date cod= e by hand with a sharpie or equivalent and were in a clear plastic snap cas= e between anti-static sponge.

BTW:=C2=A0 As an amusing= side note as we were talking about 'BourneGol'' a while back.= =C2=A0 Roger (being ex-Xerox PARC and recently of the Dorado) was used to B= CPL so he wrote a similar set of BCPL macros in C similar to Bourne's h= ack for=C2=A0sh and adb.=C2=A0 The CAD tool he wrote to design the boards w= as written in it and ran originally on V7 with a Tek 4014, then was moved t= o Magnolia when we had a stable=C2=A0 OS and his new graphics display.

Clem

3D""=E1=90=A7

=
On Wed, Fe= b 3, 2021 at 10:33 AM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2= 021 at 09:59, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

On Wed, = Feb 3, 2021 at 5:14 AM Ed Bradford <egbegb2@gmail.com> wrote:
Hay, Arnold,

MC = 68K was created in 1980 or thereabouts. We talked about 10's of Megahertz, I think, in=C2=A0those=C2=A0times.=C2=A0
The original X series part was originally unnumbered but a st= icker was later set for the lids that said X68000 (I had one on my desk - w= hich was used for the Tektronix Magnolia prototype).[1]=C2=A0 The X series = ran at 8 Mhz, but the original released (distributed - MC68000) part was bi= nned at 8 and 10=C2=A0 as were the later versions with the updat= ed paging microcode called the MC68010 a year later.=C2=A0 =C2=A0When the 6= 8020 was released Moto got the speeds up to 16Mhz and later 20.=C2=A0 By th= e '040 I think they were running at 50MHz

<= /blockquote>

Was the "X" prefix always used fo= r prototypes?=C2=A0 I remember having an XC68020 in something - might have = been an Sun 3/60, or an early Mac IIcx?

-Henry
=
=C2=A0
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