From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 26600 invoked from network); 3 Jun 2022 21:06:57 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 3 Jun 2022 21:06:57 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69B3340CAD; Sat, 4 Jun 2022 07:06:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ot1-x331.google.com (mail-ot1-x331.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::331]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0111740CA4 for ; Sat, 4 Jun 2022 07:06:49 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ot1-x331.google.com with SMTP id l9-20020a056830268900b006054381dd35so6394052otu.4 for ; Fri, 03 Jun 2022 14:06:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=kCtBh3CLJoSuoMY6yWlJCfO8vuuFiFhD/J7sVMjAzAo=; b=K20QvF/XhIjdhLV6cKdatNt8C1M28nlCiFP7aFrRJ1Sjeaq68hwAiYKcTJTWJr00Lu aMG4EGX0dxNCKcUkyU8ZycU7YWb/FSF+O8TUzkcR4s67yPP74WdMwGAHNoaSi5kaO8zB 3L2HG3OgBFFZsY5aUzq4PQwiE2Q9vvzI/hd4s= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=kCtBh3CLJoSuoMY6yWlJCfO8vuuFiFhD/J7sVMjAzAo=; b=nHt1OXUC6U/iSolpzPlzkiEDBgohgmSIJjU3C0s/uofMGWhE+V+rEZRtKE7bfnYZyU chaIBqCtHAybnxIdOK4UTZYTorN6SPabO+6ziwo6oSWpc8WP8l4CkFW24lH3WL2tRxOs EcZjSaEFn3avOqvWHt+F7k7al/lzvTPq0s+m3WF8TOfPUbdaqMjwNqLIczhYmOXJLqBN jYedtf/d7yg2GblNYe9ZNsHHuYHhFiZEx1O4CdHYrBzq+29pe3UeuC8/F5q9bP/GYahi yPVCENTGF3AOlLgyPt12NK581B7+nAd6ul+zojVvwkimeVrkpmwPWSjBzv+wGOdPHsaz DVyA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531gz/0Le1LdWeCGr3W0rK8vHZCyWMhoH7D/F7PNt85xK0E/0xPV t+9ntJUyT/PygvReicQePGopjjUah3LWCVio7lVnhHbKSP2gBw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzs0mldUws9uHoZNniJzhj61O8d0Mn1fOMJg4cLvmcfe3ZQYV6RZkjlzi+KiVwnCnF2AMJdIEQVRo2Wo0cHUCM= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:2da6:0:b0:60b:dd4c:cc85 with SMTP id g35-20020a9d2da6000000b0060bdd4ccc85mr1046163otb.383.1654290408105; Fri, 03 Jun 2022 14:06:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220603202330.f4spdxyn34uiyy5v@illithid> In-Reply-To: <20220603202330.f4spdxyn34uiyy5v@illithid> From: Clem Cole Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2022 17:06:22 -0400 Message-ID: To: "G. Branden Robinson" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000217c8605e0918013" Message-ID-Hash: TXF2GB2JNR5AWZVTRONT6UGK6JNLARQG X-Message-ID-Hash: TXF2GB2JNR5AWZVTRONT6UGK6JNLARQG X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Fwd: [simh] Announcing the Open SIMH project List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000217c8605e0918013 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Jun 3, 2022 at 4:23 PM G. Branden Robinson < g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote: > At 2022-06-03T16:00:15-0400, Clem Cole wrote: > > Recently a situation has arisen that compromises some of these > principles > > and thus the entire status of the project, creating consternation among > > many users and contributors. > Some of us on this list remember the original BDSi fight, the 386BSD to FreeBSD, then NetBSD and OpenBSD (I was friends with both sides of many of these wars). You mentioned some others, which I was also a witness to. Sadly, because we are people, people have egos and we are all somewhat flawed, this is not a new thing. The specific events really do not matter, as much as we realized that the governance of a project like this needs to be a tad more structured. The "benevolent dictator for life" (BDFL) model only works if the subject is willing to accept her/him, and he/she truly tries to act in the best interest of the whole. We have examples of that model working in a few cases, and we have examples as you pointed out, where it has failed. > Previously, we unfortunately never spent the time to codify how we would > deliver on these concepts. Rather, we have relied on an informal use of > traditional free and open-source principles. The leaders of the Steering Group have been (and I expect will continue to) "burning a lot of midnight oil" hashing this out -> what worked, works, what has not. Looking at other large distributed projects, with a particular focus on FOSS-based ones, that have been modeled using a BSD style license (the traditional license for simh) which are made up of fellow travelers with diverse interests. We have tried to come up with what we think can work for us as a community. That is to say, we also have some excellent examples of a governance model more appropriate to where the simh community is at this time. > We have used our best judgment in setting up this structure but are open > to discussion and consideration of other ideas, and to making improvements. > Many of us have been part of different projects and understand that past > mistakes are real. We have tried to learn from these experiences and apply > the collected wisdom appropriately. We desire to hear from the community as > we update and refine the operating structure for the Open SIMH project. The point is *we don't want to have the project splinter*, but rather continue to be broadly available to everyone - rather we are trying to *bring it back together.* This action is defining what the mainline is, and formalizing the governance to help make this real. It also is/had been a time for us to examine IP ownership, license status, *etc*. For instance, the simtools directory contained non-BSD style license technology. We started to ask the question of what is the best way we can handle that. My own take is I would hate to see something good harmed, as an unintended consequence. I suspect the other members of the Steering group feel similarly. We have taken a specific action that we hope can become the force to stabilize and clear up any ambiguity that previous structures might have allowed and provide a way for changes to be considered by the community in a manner that will be more acceptable to other organizations -- for instance, the Linux distros want a more formal released process, which we have not had (for good reasons BTW). *Good cooking takes time* - please bear with us, but we are here to listen and consider different ideas. Clem Cole member, SIMH Steering Group By changing some of these details now --000000000000217c8605e0918013 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Jun 3, 2022 at 4:23 = PM G. Branden Robinson <= g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote:
At 2022-06-03T16:00:15-0400, Clem Cole wrote: > Recently a situation has arisen that compromis= es some of these principles
> and thus the entire status of the project, creating consternation amon= g
> many users and contributors.

= Some of us on this list remember the original BDSi fight, the 386BSD to Fre= eBSD, then NetBSD and OpenBSD (I was friends with both sides of many of the= se wars).=C2=A0 You mentioned some others, which I was also a witness to.

Sadly, because we are people, people have egos and we a= re all somewhat flawed, this is not a new thing.

The s= pecific events really do not matter, as much as we realized that the govern= ance of a project like this needs to be a tad more structured.=C2=A0 The &q= uot;benevolent dictator for life" (BDFL) model only works if the subje= ct is willing to accept her/him, and he/she truly tries to act in the best = interest of the whole.=C2=A0 =C2=A0We have examples of that model working i= n a few cases, and we have examples as you pointed out, where it has failed= .=C2=A0 =C2=A0
Previously, we unfortunately never spent the time to cod= ify how we would deliver on these concepts. Rather, we have relied on an in= formal use of traditional free and open-source principles.

The leaders of the Steering Group have been (and I expec= t will continue to) "burning a lot of midnight oil" hashing this = out -> what worked, works, what has not.=C2=A0 Looking at other large di= stributed projects, with a particular focus on FOSS-based ones, that have b= een modeled using a BSD style license (the traditional license for simh) wh= ich are made up of fellow travelers with diverse interests.=C2=A0 We have= =C2=A0tried to come up with what we think can work for us as a community.= =C2=A0 That is to say,=C2=A0we also have some excellent examples of a governance model more app= ropriate to where the simh community is at this time.
We have us= ed our best judgment in setting up this structure but are open to discussio= n and consideration of other ideas, and to making improvements. Many of us = have been part of different projects and understand that past mistakes are = real. We have tried to learn from these experiences and apply the collected= wisdom appropriately. We desire to hear from the community as we update an= d refine the operating structure for the Open SIMH project.
The point is =C2=A0we don&= #39;t want to have the project splinter, but rather continue to be broa= dly available to everyone - rather we are trying to=C2=A0bring it bac= k=C2=A0together.=C2=A0 This action is defining what the mainline is= , and formalizing the governance to help make this real.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It als= o is/had been a time for us to examine IP ownership, license status, etc= .=C2=A0 =C2=A0For instance, the simtools directory contained non-BSD st= yle license technology.=C2=A0 We started to ask the question of what is the= best way we can handle that.

My own take is I would hate to see something good harmed, as an unintende= d=C2=A0consequence.=C2=A0 I suspect the=C2=A0other members of the Steering = group feel similarly.=C2=A0 We have taken a specific=C2=A0action that we ho= pe can become the force to stabilize and clear up any ambiguity that previo= us structures might have allowed and provide a=C2=A0way for changes to be c= onsidered by the community in a manner that will be more acceptable to othe= r organizations -- for instance, the Linux distros want a more formal relea= sed process, which we have not had (for good reasons BTW).

Good cooking takes time - plea= se bear with us, but we are here to listen and consider different ideas.

Clem Cole

member, SIMH Steering Group

By changing some of these details now
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