[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 189 bytes --] The question is can I run Unix on a PDP 11/04? I've dug around and it's unclear to me, so I'm asking y'all. Will -- GPG Fingerprint: 68F4 B3BD 1730 555A 4462 7D45 3EAA 5B6D A982 BAAF [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 453 bytes --]
> From: Will Senn > can I run Unix on a PDP 11/04? No, it doesn't have memory management, so not any of the well-known 'stock' versions (V5/V6/etc). Two choices, though: - If you get the V1 that ran on an -11/20 (which is mostly compatible with the /04 and /05), it should run on an /04. (Not sure what you'd use for mass storage, on a physical /04, though.) I'm not sure when they dropped the /20 - I think V4 n(at the latest)? But V2 and V3 are lost. - There's a 'Unix' for the LSI-11, and with minor changes (the LSI-11 isn't 100% compatible with other MMU-less 11's, but the changes are minor, e.g. MOS, written in MACRO-11, was conditionalized to run on both the LSI-11 and the -11/20) it should run on an /04. Noel
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1692 bytes --] PDP 11/04, like 11/03,11/05, 11/15, 11/20 lacks an MMU. So the traditional releases from Research, USG, UCB will not boot. That said, V1 which ran without it might work with some tweeking as they did not yet have one. And if you could find a KS-11 MMU that Ken and Dennis had for the 11/20 (which was designed by DEC CSS), theoretically next versions could be made to run. The problem is that while many of us have looked a: we can not find a KS-11 in real life (CSS did make that many), b: we can't even find documentation about it (Ken's surviving code is the best doc we have). FYI: go to bitsavers and download a copy of the PDP-11 Processor Handbook, but note the data. You probably will want (at least) both an early and a later one, as the later ones often dropped details about some of the models that were not being manufactured. For instance, I have a couple of different ones, and the '78 version really one talks about 04/34/45/55/60 - the previous processors like 03/15/40 are not included. So you need an early 70's version to include them, and later versions for the 44/90 etc. BTW: Page 4 of same, have a graphic showing the HW requirements for the DEC OS's. On the X-axis is the OS, the Y axis the model. RT-11, MUMPS-11, RSX-11M, RS-11S are the only OS's that were supported for the 04. Here is a hint, if the processor could not support RSTS, it is unlikely it could support UNIX. On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 9:17 AM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote: > The question is can I run Unix on a PDP 11/04? I've dug around and it's > unclear to me, so I'm asking y'all. > > Will > > -- > GPG Fingerprint: 68F4 B3BD 1730 555A 4462 7D45 3EAA 5B6D A982 BAAF > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3006 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1882 bytes --] s/note the data/note the date/ <-- dyslexic typing -- sigh. On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 9:53 AM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > PDP 11/04, like 11/03,11/05, 11/15, 11/20 lacks an MMU. So the > traditional releases from Research, USG, UCB will not boot. > That said, V1 which ran without it might work with some tweeking as they > did not yet have one. And if you could find a KS-11 MMU that Ken and > Dennis had for the 11/20 (which was designed by DEC CSS), theoretically > next versions could be made to run. The problem is that while many of us > have looked a: we can not find a KS-11 in real life (CSS did make that > many), b: we can't even find documentation about it (Ken's surviving code > is the best doc we have). > > FYI: go to bitsavers and download a copy of the PDP-11 Processor > Handbook, but note the data. You probably will want (at least) both > an early and a later one, as the later ones often dropped details about > some of the models that were not being manufactured. For instance, I have > a couple of different ones, and the '78 version really one talks about > 04/34/45/55/60 - the previous processors like 03/15/40 are not included. > So you need an early 70's version to include them, and later versions for > the 44/90 etc. > > BTW: Page 4 of same, have a graphic showing the HW requirements for the > DEC OS's. On the X-axis is the OS, the Y axis the model. RT-11, MUMPS-11, > RSX-11M, RS-11S are the only OS's that were supported for the 04. > > Here is a hint, if the processor could not support RSTS, it is unlikely it > could support UNIX. > > > > On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 9:17 AM Will Senn <will.senn@gmail.com> wrote: > >> The question is can I run Unix on a PDP 11/04? I've dug around and it's >> unclear to me, so I'm asking y'all. >> >> Will >> >> -- >> GPG Fingerprint: 68F4 B3BD 1730 555A 4462 7D45 3EAA 5B6D A982 BAAF >> >> [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3520 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 677 bytes --] > > - There's a 'Unix' for the LSI-11, and with minor changes (the LSI-11 isn't > 100% compatible with other MMU-less 11's, but the changes are minor, e.g. > MOS, written in MACRO-11, was conditionalized to run on both the LSI-11 > and the -11/20) it should run on an /04. > > Noel There’s always MiniUnix. https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/USDL/Mini-Unix/ <https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/USDL/Mini-Unix/> We ran that on our MMU-less PDP-11/20s and 11/40 before the LSI-11 was even introduced. It lacks obviously memory protection, traditional UNIX pipes (they’re simulated by the shell if I recall), and preemptive scheduling. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1269 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1173 bytes --] On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 7:49 AM Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote: > - If you get the V1 that ran on an -11/20 (which is mostly compatible with > the /04 and /05), it should run on an /04. (Not sure what you'd use for > mass > storage, on a physical /04, though.) I'm not sure when they dropped the > /20 - > I think V4 n(at the latest)? But V2 and V3 are lost. > Yes, the reconstructed 1st edition may run (though from dates and such, it's somewhere between 1st and 2nd edition), though I've no direct experience with 11/04 hardware, nor ideas on how to bootstrap it onto appropriate physical media... I have it in my head that the 4th edition was rewritten for the 11/45 and removed support for 11/20. I thought I knew why, but could only find part of the story in the manuals... There's a strong note in the 4th edition preface that it applies only to the 'c' version of Unix and the 3rd edition preface has a note saying the manual doesn't apply to the 11/20 version and to look in the 2nd or even 1st edition manuals for that. As others have mentioned, Mini-unix and/or LSX might have a shot, but it might be best characterized as a long shot. Warner [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1584 bytes --]
> From: Clem Cole > And if you could find a KS-11 MMU that Ken and Dennis had for the 11/20 > ... we can't even find documentation about it (Ken's surviving code is > the best doc we have). Where is that code? The Version 1 at TUHS appears to pre-date it. It would be great to have a look at it, we might be able to partially document the KS11 using it. (Ken had only vague memories of the KS11.) > From: Ronald Natalie > There's always MiniUnix. Ah; I didn't realize that was something different from LSX (the LSI-11 system). Noel
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1654 bytes --] As the author of both LSX and Mini-UNIX, I would suggest that the LSX source code is a better starting point for the 11/04, especially if single-user is the target. Mini-UNIX was written to support a small number of users on the PDP 11/10 without an MMU. However, I'm not current on what sources are still available. Heinz On 7/30/2020 9:13 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > On Thu, Jul 30, 2020 at 7:49 AM Noel Chiappa <jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu > <mailto:jnc@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>> wrote: > > - If you get the V1 that ran on an -11/20 (which is mostly > compatible with > the /04 and /05), it should run on an /04. (Not sure what you'd > use for mass > storage, on a physical /04, though.) I'm not sure when they > dropped the /20 - > I think V4 n(at the latest)? But V2 and V3 are lost. > > > Yes, the reconstructed 1st edition may run (though from dates and > such, it's somewhere between 1st and 2nd edition), though I've no > direct experience with 11/04 hardware, nor ideas on how to bootstrap > it onto appropriate physical media... > > I have it in my head that the 4th edition was rewritten for the 11/45 > and removed support for 11/20. I thought I knew why, but could only > find part of the story in the manuals... > > There's a strong note in the 4th edition preface that it applies only > to the 'c' version of Unix and the 3rd edition preface has a > note saying the manual doesn't apply to the 11/20 version and to look > in the 2nd or even 1st edition manuals for that. > > As others have mentioned, Mini-unix and/or LSX might have a shot, but > it might be best characterized as a long shot. > > Warner [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2886 bytes --]
On 30/07/20, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> - If you get the V1 that ran on an -11/20 (which is mostly compatible with
> the /04 and /05), it should run on an /04. (Not sure what you'd use for mass
> storage, on a physical /04, though.) I'm not sure when they dropped the /20 -
> I think V4 n(at the latest)? But V2 and V3 are lost.
It looks like v3 was when they forked off 11/45 UNIX. ("The second, or
even the first, edition of this manual is likely to be more appropriate.")
I believe 11/20 UNIX also needs the EAE.
aap
> From: Angelo Papenhoff > I believe 11/20 UNIX also needs the EAE. Some applications might have used it (the story about the KS11 bug with the KW11-A confirms they did use it on that machine), but I found no trace of use of it in a quick scan of the entire Version 1 source (the one which is extant). Also, the first file in the OS source: https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V1/u0.s lists the addresses of all device registers, and the KE11-A isn't there. If the KE11 is needed to run some application on the -11/04, there are KE11-B's (program compatible, but a single hex card) available, ISTR. For emulation, something (SIMH?) supports it, since the TV -11 on ITS (now running in emulation,I'm pretty sure) uses it. Noel
On 30/07/20, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Angelo Papenhoff > > > I believe 11/20 UNIX also needs the EAE. > > Some applications might have used it (the story about the KS11 bug with the > KW11-A confirms they did use it on that machine), but I found no trace of use > of it in a quick scan of the entire Version 1 source (the one which is > extant). > > Also, the first file in the OS source: > > https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V1/u0.s > > lists the addresses of all device registers, and the KE11-A isn't there. Oh ok. The B runtime uses the EAE so i assumed it was used in other places as well. > If the KE11 is needed to run some application on the -11/04, there are > KE11-B's (program compatible, but a single hex card) available, ISTR. For > emulation, something (SIMH?) supports it, since the TV -11 on ITS (now running > in emulation,I'm pretty sure) uses it. Well the TV-11 is a tough question. I originally wrote an 11/05 emulator because some document said it was an 11/10 (which is the same thing). But other sources claimed it was an 11/20. you can build both versions and both work. My EAE emulation is based on the KE-11A document from bitsavers. (code here: https://github.com/aap/pdp11 ) aap