From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 19956dd4 for ; Mon, 3 Dec 2018 20:38:07 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 0BEDEA2088; Tue, 4 Dec 2018 06:38:06 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC309A1CE4; Tue, 4 Dec 2018 06:37:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 084D4A1CE4; Tue, 4 Dec 2018 06:37:38 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wm1-f51.google.com (mail-wm1-f51.google.com [209.85.128.51]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C13694A37 for ; Tue, 4 Dec 2018 06:37:32 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wm1-f51.google.com with SMTP id f81so4675016wmd.4 for ; Mon, 03 Dec 2018 12:37:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=tqTqGmXOrZmuZm/LvKnTWOZpOgbewlXie1QGKJE7iJ8=; b=N8YQa47OeGDVGKtilepOsGXw5y7xN4AlvIuhl6t45EC4RLcjX0HEtiVcTgRf2H06fo DGuZo/TiDEBUcb3Ml516wRtWgR6XF0pIL2mAAULmvmd3TtjCEhkWPlpBsN5DF+niDJns 8l2Bz+aZeB+571Xiy6h+d7UqqNUKY0nCNpkNk= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tqTqGmXOrZmuZm/LvKnTWOZpOgbewlXie1QGKJE7iJ8=; b=LjWvHBSnWOMYcYbuY7l4Gbs3Ndd2neODb/zqx9n1xSzaLAHryAEYsRNL4JwO4w0vOy /tlKAKKOR+/SAIlaG/drtrA5g69a/a6Qhd4JZJhb8/vRNRdycIH3TVeewNwgXROmVb1/ Hzlqo8WiygqJhWr6j2/Q+FZDA7fsP+GUou2QveEYFgGEreV0LJ9qZuv5GKdJfbJxHHPY on2cIkPlWOXN1yjyK//7/ZBjmPBY7mDfPtQqbulMwjzFZ7xwLGDaEdtR9uhj4AxNWM+y QO02u4IGxwS5UNBkzDL6e0836BGa+zV9SvTfNwaqsTzKUM596EO2ACamo5fPf7m7zznt SKuQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWZA4oZI/qGHPfDg0WICbjtyaNz2M4i/6kaqk+Zx5n8bTosQtrob IrDOW5W95fKKSkePMl3JQC03Z4TifT/2+TDONp9PGw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/UAc2sdhdxzf2VxbrsGqCXtnz2InGcvkuCiskPQ4V/RldEdu3XAO3Ktk8+Io+sy+QHQKNMeMH4sATpBqOrw6mA= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:aacf:: with SMTP id t198-v6mr9471877wme.108.1543869450996; Mon, 03 Dec 2018 12:37:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2018 15:37:04 -0500 Message-ID: To: Paul Winalski Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000034e4a1057c241e2f" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Happy birthday, John Backus! X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000034e4a1057c241e2f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 3:21 PM Paul Winalski wrote: > Fortran was being devised at the same time that Chomsky, et. > al. were doing the research on formal languages. Essentially, Fortran > syntax was devised before computer scientists knew better. I suspect > COBOL has similar issues. > I agree. I think you nailed about "not knowing any better.' And it really is amazing how well it has endured. Like a lot of things, the first guys do make errors because they really have not yet eccounter the longer term issues - they are just trying to solve the problem they had in front of them. On another fron, just think the issues in networking that were made in the 70s. Same thing. But IP/TCP works and works really well and has endured. You folks in the compiler team and in particular the Fortran crew, did a great job over the years. I used to kid your boss asking of there were Fortran developers than customers in our DEC days; but all kidding aside. A= nd he knew I knew. I have always respected those folks. As I said, they paid my salary for so many years. I think it's sad we don't teach Fortran to 'modern' programmers in a comparitive languages class. The students should know what is good, why it has lasted and marvel at what a wonder system people devised in the late 1950s and how well Computer Scientists have over the next 60 years kept it strong and relevant. Then you can teach them, Rust, Go or whatever the cool kids think are hot and important. Ask them all, why do we think this languages will or will not last (and the end, it will be economics but that's another thread). Clem =E1=90=A7 --00000000000034e4a1057c241e2f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Dec 3, 2018 at 3:21 PM Paul Winalski <= ;paul.winalski@gmail.com>= wrote:
Fortran was being devised at the same time that Chomsky, et.
al. were doing the research on formal languages.=C2=A0 Essentially, Fortran=
syntax was devised before computer scientists knew better.=C2=A0 I suspect<= br> COBOL has similar issues.
I agree.=C2=A0 I think you nailed about "not knowing any better= .'=C2=A0 =C2=A0And it really is amazing how well it has endured.=C2=A0 = Like a lot of things, the first guys do make errors because they really hav= e not yet eccounter the longer term issues - they are just trying to solve = the problem they had in front of them.=C2=A0 On another fron, just think th= e issues in networking that were made in the 70s.=C2=A0 Same thing.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0But IP/TCP works and works really well and has endured.=

You folks=C2=A0i= n the compiler team and in particular the Fortran crew, did a gr= eat job over the years.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I used to kid your boss asking of there= were Fortran developers than customers in our DEC days; but all kidding as= ide.=C2=A0And he knew I knew. =C2=A0I have always respected thos= e folks.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As I said, they paid my salary for so many years.

I t= hink it's sad we don't teach Fortran to 'modern' programmer= s in a comparitive languages class.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The students should know wh= at is good, why it has lasted and marvel at what a wonder system people dev= ised in the late 1950s and how well Computer Scientists have over the next = 60 years kept it strong and relevant.=C2=A0 Then you can teach them, Rust, = Go or whatever the cool kids think are hot and important.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ask = them all, why do we think this languages will or will not last (and the end= , it will be economics but that's another thread).
<= div>
<= /span>
Clem
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