From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id ff59b9a1 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 17:01:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 5E7069BFCE; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 03:01:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D34339478F; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 03:00:55 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="FY7hi8tc"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 0D9C89478F; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 03:00:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wr1-f53.google.com (mail-wr1-f53.google.com [209.85.221.53]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7504F9478D for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 03:00:53 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wr1-f53.google.com with SMTP id b9so256949wrs.0 for ; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 10:00:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=T/DmDgj75A4Tz/TzHRgggUPsLY65EQn7uD8rK/AcNuk=; b=FY7hi8tc6si+kubOgZ1o9aD7BzfZaeoVcetc9NYGJ1HZOhcUzbQzpOmksQN0nIRJWY b6anyTgMoesnfZw2bLyGBJuu3L/zftZ72NqknUWyoJ6zAzxij0Ktec+o9Bh1fBJXB2ZF kVVNkgo3DhkCgXnoa/C1OjWwUwUnWpy3jbboA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=T/DmDgj75A4Tz/TzHRgggUPsLY65EQn7uD8rK/AcNuk=; b=LD5Iui6McCvdanjR5UvAs8rpC2ypJwS2iRzjEGwwgY0UrT99ZrmEmTOOXR2x10S/Jh eKcP3oqOloPrBKzaqAGqa15DT+EvwfnP0hnr+yIazW/RwY2/OKSkwMcX8d9ERSqQwkM2 Wh3jxtbARNASbfPZb5EhRqt9AtV7MOhezxNb/xJ1M4dJzof/FeJyQD3FWiQ3tfyr7aks kNWuBumkMSfXSsFhLL0PRxa8lBRzfEYqnkp+ahU8o+hl5A/oEl1QbIhhKm8X/8o5wBoF EbOQyXN8539355QWSGIvL1BLeU4a1Rx5FZJhCwIgrOan3VyuNyLWhYM+Yrv/rvW0hNPL jzrA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUqbU+lwa8pSIU89Xlz2zFKVEqvi8T/M5a1gHXOpiG1klVYfeu9 WS/e1zlf+7ps/0VElBfNURrdqNqsnGkBfBQ33jUMleQjlXMe2Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwHV/LzkU7cuvQ2jZhKvjZOzbb3cvl0PoGw5zsIcswHD2DJP/9zLCZxs3QWVFKY/YA4aYOTwaw1Nqa1oCikO1c= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:5384:: with SMTP id d4mr611583wrv.255.1568653251957; Mon, 16 Sep 2019 10:00:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2e84c4d0-5239-b223-856d-00aacf8d3028@andrewnesbit.org> <201909150654.x8F6sChG021185@freefriends.org> <201909160552.x8G5qBYK025195@freefriends.org> <20190916145122.GH2046@mcvoy.com> <20190916161040.GM2046@mcvoy.com> <201909161616.x8GGG4Fb020760@darkstar.fourwinds.com> <20190916162614.GO2046@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 13:00:24 -0400 Message-ID: To: Richard Salz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dbebfc0592ae8bba" Subject: Re: [TUHS] earliest Unix roff X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000dbebfc0592ae8bba Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I note that it wasn't "GNI" it was GNU or he would have started with LISP. The fact is rms started by wanting to hack/rewrite Gosling EMACS as it had been released and some of the other C versions were at the same time a little less open to him as a starting point. Since it was not in LISP, he needed to write a C Compiler (which I still think is the #1 positive thing from the Gnu project and in the end, I believe that it was others that really made the compiler the success, not rms other than he tirelessly championed it). The reality is that the Gnu team quick set out to rewrite the UNIX tools and used Trix (a UNIX clone) as the original OS. Hurd did not come until later and in the Linux became the kernel it lived upon (as Jon says, it's Internet/Linux not Gnu/Linux). Sorry, IMO, rms tried to 'pee on Unix to make it smell like ITS' - not surprising as you say. But pretty darned arrogant none-the less. The results makes using many of the tools "astonishing" to everyone else. +1 to Jon's comments. "Even if, as some believe, the GNU approach was superior, any possible bene= fits were outweighed by the UNIX community=E2=80=99s huge loss of productivity t= hat resulted from the fragmented ecosystem." Amen brother Jon, and this week's free will offering will be sponsoring ...= . On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 12:31 PM Richard Salz wrote: > I don't think it's totally GNU's fault that it became Linux. They weren'= t > trying to be tourists in Rome, they were trying to create a new city of > their own. > --000000000000dbebfc0592ae8bba Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I note that it wasn't "= ;GNI" it was GNU or he would have started with LISP.

The fac= t is rms started by wanting to hack/rewrite Gosling EMACS as it had been re= leased and some of the other C versions were at the=C2=A0same time a little= less open to him as a starting point.=C2=A0 Since it was not in LISP, he n= eeded to write a C Compiler (which I still think is the #1 positive thing f= rom the Gnu project and in the end, I believe that it was others that reall= y made the compiler the success, not rms other than he tirelessly champione= d=C2=A0it).=C2=A0 The reality is that the Gnu team quick set out=C2=A0 to r= ewrite the=C2=A0UNIX tools and used Trix (a UNIX clone) as the original OS.= Hurd did not come until later and in the Linux became the kernel it lived = upon (as Jon says, it's Internet/Linux not Gnu/Linux).
<= font color=3D"#0000ff">
Sorry, = IMO, rms tried to 'pee on Unix to make it smell like ITS' - not sur= prising as you say.=C2=A0 But pretty darned arrogant=C2=A0none-the less. Th= e results makes using many of the tools "astonishing" to everyone= else.

+1 to Jon's comments.
&quo= t;Even=C2=A0<= span style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">if, as some believe, = the GNU approach was superior, any possible=C2=A0benefits were outweighed by the UNIX co= mmunity=E2=80=99s huge loss of=C2=A0productivity that resulted from the fragmented ecosy= stem."
Amen brother Jon, and th= is week's free will offering will be sponsoring ....

On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 12:31 PM Richard Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com> wrote:
I = don't think it's totally GNU's fault that it became Linux.=C2= =A0 They weren't trying to be tourists in Rome, they were trying to cre= ate a new city of their own.
--000000000000dbebfc0592ae8bba--