From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id e05d4312 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 14:22:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 98A0E9C044; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 00:22:13 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73CD9947D7; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 00:21:52 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="YZZP26GM"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D1A3D947CC; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 00:21:49 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wr1-f44.google.com (mail-wr1-f44.google.com [209.85.221.44]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DA35947D7 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 00:21:48 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wr1-f44.google.com with SMTP id o18so3328672wrv.13 for ; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 07:21:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8f1VraqfIr1W3z5MX4n6HQZIO6bObNEOTXYPZfzjFT8=; b=YZZP26GM1i0BFG69DMgRUGzOr0czvo5vhteT1QwwgLTk8Vfm+Dgig3ONhPdT1MeOh1 DS7xlQpRb4PHVS49tNSnIjvGM4RY4G1RpjLEJX3MJfqoslF8sl8fp6oj9c37ChfzQxDo hCTBDhMFkHoU73+iUw95f03DgYBVjrGBLVnFg= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8f1VraqfIr1W3z5MX4n6HQZIO6bObNEOTXYPZfzjFT8=; b=nGCrjqIwgeA1HI4ou9rg/7wtrNg5OweBNPyGVz3xrI8cYyOjr8xttOsY1b81lr8gP2 ucGSqUL/JkcXMYdmuxq+4oAiacR9oQYJz+nK4TZZwLtzT1OEUzx9du3ILcLm6Dn6A5oa f8k9ZvRJ2Oaykz+YDDYbJSyVECW4igFTpxIZT+2jI+W4WN91ZT/effA3RxkYlARGC2xb nNZHbS39VN3bFd2Rme34ZzEObv9/I/1J/fl+QyguWFXevphJx7i9uJnyeSoVwGqA/sHf TBMNvv69E4f3gYXzd5beRyHr5TK5/pP7T75Gyv1j6cGawqjpDEM8weu0owjPf7aZJtm7 nzMw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWGAoAn7LzhUlqK4eqVvhNSQk1ZdbkXnyv2bglE6oPoXOtxUkWE pdJI072qLwyjpWIkxCxPQnSdtDUTlLE++Rp/ub/OA3FWPBx4Iw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwG5zwnZ9erC4y69YRpusfbbvTvEZxCHwjhe+nWeilO8TvTUJN7TDXP8NdnEH0WydToadgPZHig1e5ychjebAU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:10c2:: with SMTP id b2mr3373300wrx.45.1568730106742; Tue, 17 Sep 2019 07:21:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20190913221345.GA16129@minnie.tuhs.org> <20190914020240.GO2046@mcvoy.com> <20190914024433.GA19193@minnie.tuhs.org> <2e84c4d0-5239-b223-856d-00aacf8d3028@andrewnesbit.org> <201909150654.x8F6sChG021185@freefriends.org> <201909160552.x8G5qBYK025195@freefriends.org> <20190916145122.GH2046@mcvoy.com> <201909170753.x8H7r8oT004491@freefriends.org> In-Reply-To: <201909170753.x8H7r8oT004491@freefriends.org> From: Clem Cole Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2019 10:21:20 -0400 Message-ID: To: Aharon Robbins Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c2de080592c07079" Subject: Re: [TUHS] earliest Unix roff X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000c2de080592c07079 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fair enough. Mei culpa from one of those that was vocal. That said, maybe a trick is to stay away from texinfo/info and the man page discussion on this list since its a hot button that causes much trama for some with a more traditional UNIX view. Please don't leave, your voice is important and I generally agree with you and always like to hear you out. But even if I do not agree, I still want to listen. You have come to your conclusions in a different manner than some of us, and where each of us puts the MSB tends to color our views. Diversity of opinion is a good thing. Respectfully, Clem =E1=90=A7 On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 3:53 AM wrote: > It is like clockwork. > > Whenever I say something about Texinfo *as a markup language* for use > in *writing books*, the discussion inevitably degenerates into a hate > rant against Info and RMS's (failed) attempt to replace man pages. > Totally missing the point too. > > This is a trend on TUHS. The same discussions, the same rants, often > the same misinformation, over and over and over again. > > I start to wonder if I should continue to subscribe. > > Arnold > > Larry McVoy wrote: > > > On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 08:10:48AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote: > > > On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 1:52 AM wrote: > > > > > > > I use the standalone Info reader (named info) if I want to look at > the > > > > Info output. > > > > > > > Fair enough, but be careful, while I admit I have not looked in a > while, > > > info(gnu) relies on emacs keybindings and a number of very emacs'ish > things. > > > Every time I have tried to deal with it, I have unprogram my fingers > and > > > reset them to emacs. > > > > > > If it would have used more(1) [or even less(1)] then I would not be a= s > > > annoyed. > > > Unix had fine tools [man(1), more(1), et al] and rms and friends felt > the > > > need to replace them with ITS-like programs. > > > > I hate texinfo and friends. I get why it is better than man, but man w= as > > good enough, more than good enough, and the GNU project took everything > > it could find and destroyed the man pages. > > > > If you have something like perl that needs a zillion sub pages, info > > makes sense. For just a man page, info is horrible. > --000000000000c2de080592c07079 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fair enough.=C2=A0 Mei cul= pa from one of those that was vocal.=C2=A0 That said, maybe a trick is to s= tay away from texinfo/info and the man page discussion on this list since i= ts a hot button that causes much trama for some with a more traditional UNI= X view.

Please don't leave, your voice is important and I generally agree= with you and always like to hear you out.=C2=A0 But even if I do not agree= , I still want to listen.=C2=A0 You have come to your conclusions in a diff= erent manner than some of us, and where each of us puts the MSB tends to co= lor our views.=C2=A0 Diversity of opinion=C2=A0is a good thing.

Respectfully,=
Clem=C2=A0
3D""=E1=90= =A7

On Tue, Sep 17, 2019 at 3:53 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
It is like clockwork.

Whenever I say something about Texinfo *as a markup language* for use
in *writing books*, the discussion inevitably degenerates into a hate
rant against Info and RMS's (failed) attempt to replace man pages.
Totally missing the point too.

This is a trend on TUHS.=C2=A0 The same discussions, the same rants, often<= br> the same misinformation, over and over and over again.

I start to wonder if I should continue to subscribe.

Arnold

Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.= com> wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 08:10:48AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
> > On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 1:52 AM <arnold@skeeve.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I use the standalone Info reader (named info) if I want to l= ook at the
> > > Info output.
> > >
> > Fair enough, but be careful, while I admit I have not looked in a= while,
> > info(gnu) relies on emacs keybindings and a number of very emacs&= #39;ish things.
> > Every time I have tried to deal with it, I have unprogram my fing= ers and
> > reset them to emacs.
> >
> > If it would have used more(1) [or even less(1)] then I would not = be as
> > annoyed.
> > Unix had fine tools [man(1), more(1), et al] and rms and friends = felt the
> > need to replace them with ITS-like programs.
>
> I hate texinfo and friends.=C2=A0 I get why it is better than man, but= man was
> good enough, more than good enough, and the GNU project took everythin= g
> it could find and destroyed the man pages.
>
> If you have something like perl that needs a zillion sub pages, info > makes sense.=C2=A0 For just a man page, info is horrible.
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