From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 4659 invoked from network); 9 Dec 2020 16:12:17 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 9 Dec 2020 16:12:17 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id A7ADB944D5; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 02:12:13 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2004944D4; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 02:11:55 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="cGOWmSPa"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id B8A3A944D4; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 02:11:53 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f180.google.com (mail-qk1-f180.google.com [209.85.222.180]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DBF0944D3 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2020 02:11:53 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f180.google.com with SMTP id m185so610164qkf.12 for ; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 08:11:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=auEy1tQOGAbo/zEK6Omv0LObSGrsayXR8m58MYUfUsI=; b=cGOWmSPa//7fS13lkUzvWfEBrpaxv1D1n5GD6OajhKAuGuob2ORzlOpDqJLhbG7xwH Qzb78TGHG/HEojaiIO8vGIJhngRaFD3v8WeE9yC7njLOksUW4DKsGp6Z0v6HKLgrkkfP 8k5XewgzcDfm8Fvk1mgtLpmPbrFZX5u9rPUko= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=auEy1tQOGAbo/zEK6Omv0LObSGrsayXR8m58MYUfUsI=; b=PtSM6B7gKIyhx/zvEMCwoWkBseLtFUpzCtd0R/Al+Xuu56vblsiavcv7Cj2K4Ze14U cjNwsky32cJHsLh1r1H/SmFJzVNkob3OS7husbiTLFNL5Vp0bBiUcWgUfUuqrFCmajCf l4/svUQvq1Oa8q5LSlbwLFsNsjgL/CPZLtPjOrJrmTdv10xKRZXbAYbTwC/bKiQDG269 yC7Oy00+SRFG2GJH93ocQUzxB0XOV4VxlKxmASG2wzI0eh7usJuHuhlAT+ghu8uAexQn rotw+6LstMEhYYbf1vpclY7qzryESrXpIUC0HC8z0YKSWNlGyMxZXo75gy79Atb6c5fA pOIA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531u/xooRLvXbqtUJIoM2/aM3uULDzqSAQV38cZRvYdHJWbxabir CNlQIL8KcCq6aqgQnTSwU/IZyZex4LeJyBlj394QzycZNdb+j+ED X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw6flOmOxFVXF4f6mcT6F7AdtjCG7FbIP+qEtHG7sim27bxohBm+F7P+tdPtfdhgAoYSrBvkujm40ufYrZbjDg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:88d:: with SMTP id b13mr3800810qka.133.1607530311864; Wed, 09 Dec 2020 08:11:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <88E7F8CE-DC08-44AB-BF12-EFD4C5958950@iitbombay.org> In-Reply-To: <88E7F8CE-DC08-44AB-BF12-EFD4C5958950@iitbombay.org> From: Clem Cole Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2020 11:11:25 -0500 Message-ID: To: Bakul Shah Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000346b0d05b60a5145" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Were cron and at done at the same time? Or one before the other? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000346b0d05b60a5145 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ah .. but all the Pascal folks got on the C++ bandwagon when it was clear C had won. Frankly, the death of C++ IMO was all the crap added too it, but we have moved in COFF territory and off of Unix and Unix philosophy I think= . On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 11:01 AM Bakul Shah wrote: > please don=E2=80=99t blame c++ on pascal folks. stroustrup had nothing to= do with > pascal. > > On Dec 9, 2020, at 7:41 AM, Clem Cole wrote: > > =EF=BB=BF > Amen Doug. > > On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 11:36 PM M Douglas McIlroy < > m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> wrote: > >> To paraphrase John Cocke (speaking about Fortran): one must understand >> that Unix commands are not a logical language. They are a natural >> language--in the sense that they developed by organic evolution, not >> "intelligent design". >> > But I offer a suggestion that another dimension that should be forgotten > in time scale and the economics within. > > When things evolve they do so on different clocks that are not > necessarily linear. *i.e. *what was 'better' (winning) today, but might > not be considered so tomorrow, however could yet prove otherwise sometime > later. I use programming languages as a great example... There was a > huge C vs Pascal debate, that C 'won' - but I've always said the rise of > C++ came from the Pascal folks that could say "C didn't win." From the > ashes of C++ we have Java, Go, and Rust. > > My point is that "intelligent design" doesn't necessarily guarantee > goodness or for that matter,complete logical thinking. > > My own take on this is what I call "Cole's Law" *Simple economics > always beats sophisticated architecture.* > What you call *organic evolution* is what I think of what makes the *best > economic sense* for the user and that is a function of the time scale and > available resources at the time of creation/deployment. > > Clem > > --000000000000346b0d05b60a5145 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ah .. but all the Pascal folks got on the C++ bandwagon= when it was clear C had won.=C2=A0 Frankly, the death of C++ IMO was all t= he crap added too it, but we have moved in COFF territory and off of Unix a= nd Unix philosophy I think.

<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Dec 9, 2020 at 11:01 AM Bakul = Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org>= wrote:
please don=E2=80=99t blame c++ on pascal folks. = stroustrup had nothing to do with pascal. =C2=A0

=
On Dec 9, 2020, at 7:41 AM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
=EF=BB= =BF
Amen Doug.<= /font>

On Tue, = Dec 8, 2020 at 11:36 PM M Douglas McIlroy <m.douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu= > wrote:
To paraphrase John Cocke (speaking ab= out Fortran): one must understand
that Unix commands are not a logical language. They are a natural
language--in the sense that they developed by organic evolution, not
"intelligent design".
But I offer a suggestion that another dimension that should be= forgotten in time scale and the economics within.
=
When things evolve they do so on different clocks that are not ne= cessarily=C2=A0linear.=C2=A0 =C2=A0i.e. what was 'better' (w= inning) today, but might not be considered so tomorrow, however could yet p= rove otherwise sometime later.=C2=A0 I use programming languages as a great= example...=C2=A0 =C2=A0There was a huge C vs Pascal debate, that C 'wo= n' - but I've always said the rise of C++ came from the Pascal folk= s=C2=A0that could say=C2=A0"C didn't win."=C2=A0 From the ash= es of C++ we have Java, Go, and Rust.=C2=A0

My point is that=C2=A0 =C2=A0"intelligent design" doesn't = necessarily=C2=A0guarantee goodness or for that matter,complete logical thi= nking.

My own take on this is what I call= "Cole's Law"=C2=A0 =C2=A0S= imple economics always beats sophisticated architecture.
What = you call organic evolution is what I think of what makes the best= economic sense for the user and that is a function of the time scale a= nd available resources at the time of creation/deployment.
<= br>
Clem

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