From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 5855 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2021 14:20:10 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 16 Jul 2021 14:20:10 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 4A69B9C82F; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 00:20:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99E389C7F1; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 00:19:46 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="UDV2otS8"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 562669C7F1; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 00:19:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f175.google.com (mail-qt1-f175.google.com [209.85.160.175]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 238759C7F0 for ; Sat, 17 Jul 2021 00:19:43 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f175.google.com with SMTP id q15so2240613qtp.0 for ; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 07:19:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ESToBZJZwKylS2SU26Rb4VSAa71izAgCmLQBeuhqYp8=; b=UDV2otS8eZ8WfsPdNdlguL2zmQb5Xs6C9FOoObkR89j135gX5SB/IymuHM7glhVSkB /a+jRjD3Qhpof/eCjkvjvZEVX7pZwhlEb/DU7Piza+JhpVR4EpCdh8AL43PXuV/7Zw1D xAaQbQ8t4ehgMQVaQaaLqY62Ir9S4sA/ERn3E= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ESToBZJZwKylS2SU26Rb4VSAa71izAgCmLQBeuhqYp8=; b=F3N/7FYtYRv1JORrRW5o7F58Dls+Un+j9hY9HbbGKk26jQybVx2UOzuPS6XSzuY/0D 5J8bufgL6q60cBRexsJd5gY3fB20yD2A/hqdcLoupCMG4J3aPQbj15k1gwMIhT3ViKyZ UA9oEwlKdeRnh6VthGkiyVfBC87tyEvoDumQxgH+dR5SmkaSeHATgW76ORQLNJMSr1UD uivTdBZsh/d+0WtO6hICLNTZNx4qDNeCffn29TcOgylL7vJ0K5NtVww9LJqQMj6xeQ1a ULdpQRbiAEfOtXZTzWj1776KxIkC0mL4a1EqiYitiKkZ1pXGDs/Ax2nPg/RmUmq0UC7u qIWw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Q6kSTN36W5IElxreG+d6OhPgV8QSny7yqfwjD7skyluSRPTs1 de9lwpxEvy66SLFKVrqhQ5JpLkMyD3F9gzhNNLPMSg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzwtzLCOa3WPuD3MP5QX5cMGPf59QuzBk3rXHiiFs4Yth26R+udgIPpepZ6xDqNd0I9Zi8ckOzDbp3fX1pDywM= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:7f85:: with SMTP id z5mr9406749qtj.354.1626445181857; Fri, 16 Jul 2021 07:19:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1626375671.1426.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org> <7wczriptt4.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: <7wczriptt4.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> From: Clem Cole Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2021 10:19:15 -0400 Message-ID: To: Lars Brinkhoff Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004fc42405c73e4789" Subject: Re: [TUHS] head/sed/tail (was The Unix shell: a 50-year view) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000004fc42405c73e4789 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jul 16, 2021 at 4:05 AM Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Clem Cole wrote: > > The 'second' C compiler was a PDP-10 and Honeywell (36-bit) target > > Alan Synder did for his MIT Thesis. It was originally targeted to ITS > > for the PDP-10, but it ran on Tops-20 also. My >>memory<< is he used > > a 7-bit Character, ala SAIL, with 5 chars stored in a word with a bit > > leftover. > > On ITS it only ever stored characters as full 36-bit words! So sizeof > char =3D=3D 1 =3D=3D sizeof int. This is allowed per the C standard. (M= aybe it > was updated somewhere else, I dunno.) > Ah - that makes sense. I never programmed the Honeywell in anything but Dartmouth BASIC (mostly) and any early FORTRAN (very little) and the whole idea of storage size was somewhat oblivious to me at the point as I was a youngster when I did that. Any idea did the Honeywell treat chars as 36-bit entities also? Steve, maybe you remember? Also, please remember that the standard does not yet exist for a good 10 years ;-) At this point, the 'standard' was the Ritchie Compiler for the PDP-11. At the time, we to run wanted the program on all of the UNIX/v6 systems and CMU's version of TOPS-10 and later TOPS-20 as an interchange format. Thus, I have memories of having to use the "c =3D& 0177" idiom in the backup/dumper program in a number of places [remember tar does not yet exist, and tp/stp was a binary program]. Beyond that, I don't remember much about the running C on the 10s. I think we started trying to move Harvard's stp to TOPS-10, but ran into an issue [maybe the directory size] and stopped. Since backup (dumper) was heavily used, we were trying to get IUS and SUS to be able to be backed up and handled the same way the operators did the backup for the 10's. In my own case, I had learned SAIL (and BLISS) on the 10s before C on the PDP-11, plus this was an early C program for me, maybe my second or third non-trivial one after I worked with Ted on fsck, so coming from the PDP-10/SAIL/BLISS *et al *world, 7-bit chars certainly seemed normal. I also remember having an early 'ah-ha' moment, when the difference between a 7-bit and 8-bit char started to become important. Clem =E1=90=A7 --0000000000004fc42405c73e4789 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Jul 16, 2021 at 4:05= AM Lars Brinkhoff <lars@nocrew.org> wrote:
Cl= em Cole wrote:
> The 'second' C compiler was a PDP-10 and Honeywell (36-bit) ta= rget
> Alan Synder did for his MIT Thesis.=C2=A0 It was originally targeted t= o ITS
> for the PDP-10, but it ran on Tops-20 also.=C2=A0 My >>memory<= ;< is he used
> a 7-bit Character, ala SAIL, with 5 chars stored in a word with a bit<= br> > leftover.

On ITS it only ever stored characters as full 36-bit words!=C2=A0 So sizeof=
char =3D=3D 1 =3D=3D sizeof int.=C2=A0 This is allowed per the C standard.= =C2=A0 (Maybe it
was updated somewhere else, I dunno.)

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