From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 75bd4c7d for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 15:04:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 6824E9BB68; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 01:04:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 430CF9B545; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 01:04:28 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="irkstG96"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 740E99B545; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 01:04:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f176.google.com (mail-qt1-f176.google.com [209.85.160.176]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6B9D951B1 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 01:04:25 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f176.google.com with SMTP id e5so16471qtm.6 for ; Tue, 07 Jan 2020 07:04:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=oKCely7MArpPFxa4B0Bm5EQjzssMp28nUYbwsr4OLig=; b=irkstG96TcQvWT8UdraSa8onapPnw2HQIn9PGb7TjRhm2P8lsRWbSWaPj3GK9HExvj C49dWJso3RcW6Tb1usdq1bVRpBbEMmszsCN6wa6x49UDgidN7a/NxkIVraaekoeYuGao i2yQtK7k2VuiwYiEEfhNa41DddzQUVhcJ7Puw= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=oKCely7MArpPFxa4B0Bm5EQjzssMp28nUYbwsr4OLig=; b=IcD7Y47dio8q0sxh8LC5U5f5LAulToSZlzoySj0f13k2uPPdXHllouoePPGR5w373V /lZMnBjd7XBSEFnRJ+S+3Qg8cZXTwO91otTzF7QQXK4QqDoN5s49bXqIewCgrWgMbvXs GfM0JnwG6UIPwup34Gvh/M8jp96ZRFBKkAw6uHdXrlnUQkj8v9Oe0V57dSkD0sQp6LAC Qo5KHvoEAC4lM0X0/sZx0zjPy11NEGo1blBtKMA2o5xOoINHcHPj17wsev2HrFDNCi+e eUzAL3VZXJ0nDC6hnZtplh3yDKC+hFJ3R34J/JaL1ki3fEtN2hOtQgkMEtZ+HX7JV4Df vhAg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXVONIYz9kLotCTOo1hZvAICdH0c/30T0gT5cQ5v+WaSzChpvuc zYoLSTp673O8/L0SQjYQp3Olqfh3mRaqqZLgiC882Zmf1GE66g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwzo13NPNecDVUPcFObRQmIhRrlkFbT4HEUJbZoDev+OPEDD3/ysw8Ry3gA/25uYcBwY2+KbhUFrPJtwYr27eg= X-Received: by 2002:aed:2202:: with SMTP id n2mr82156226qtc.4.1578409464687; Tue, 07 Jan 2020 07:04:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202001070231.0072ViZp123105@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU> In-Reply-To: <202001070231.0072ViZp123105@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU> From: Clem Cole Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 10:03:57 -0500 Message-ID: To: Doug McIlroy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007403bc059b8e1721" Subject: Re: [TUHS] screen editors X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000007403bc059b8e1721 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 9:32 PM Doug McIlroy wrote: > > but=E2=80=A6damn, even ex/vi 3.x is huge > > It was so excesssive right from the start that I refused to use it. > Sam was the first screen editor that I deemed worthwhile, and I > still use it today. > > Doug > Oh so true; although the early version from 2BSD was smaller. I bet my fingers are still only using much of that subset ;-) But I certainly watched it grow and grow over the years. I'm really not so sure about 'vim' -- it has become as much of a feature sink as emacs. FWIW: When I went from PDP-10 land to UNIX, I learned ed for 5th edition and somewhat pined for a screen editor. Soon after upgrading to 6th edition at CMU, we found a visual editor called Fred - the Friendly Editor, from Cornell IIRC (I think it's on the original USENIX tape but I don't remember how we got it). I had to hack in the Perkin-Elmer Fox terminal support, but it was a superset of V6 ed so a pretty trivial learning curve. However, since Fred had the terminal support compiled it and when I went to Tektronix a few years later, I had to add a whole bunch of new terminals and we quickly started running into the address issues on the 11/40 class systems. Mark Bales was working as a summer student and had brought 2BSD with him (inc. vi and csh). Poof, thanks to termcap ex/vi could run on most every terminal we already had (in some manner) which Fred could not. And because of termcap not having to keep the code for the other terminals not being used in memory, even though the editor itself was more complex, we could just squeeze that version on an 11/40 class system running Seventh Edition. That made me take notice. Again it was ed under the covers so the transition was easy. I was pretty impressed with termcap, and soon thereafter I found myself sending Mary Ann a couple of new terminal definitions for some missing Tek terminals like Tek 4025. With the VAX, and new ex/vi shows up and it would not run on the PDP-11's, I was disappointed. But the old version still worked and I had started to notice that a *version of **vi *had started to show up on most everything I used, from VMS to the Cray's and later the PCs, so really I never looked back. It became the most portable editor for my fingers as I had long ago forgotten EMACS (even when we got Vaxen and Gosling EMACS shows up on the UNIX scene, I never bother to really relearn it - I can use it if I have too, but not as well as vi these days). --0000000000007403bc059b8e1721 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 9:32 = PM Doug McIlroy <doug@cs.dartmo= uth.edu> wrote:
> but=E2=80=A6damn, even ex/vi 3.x is huge

It was so excesssive right from the start that I refused to use it.
Sam was the first screen editor that I deemed worthwhile, and I
still use it today.

Doug
Oh so true; although the early version from 2= BSD was smaller.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I bet my fingers are still only using much of = that subset ;-)=C2=A0 But I certainly watched it grow and grow over the yea= rs.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I'm really not so sure about 'vim' -- it has be= come as much of a feature sink as emacs.

FWIW: When I went from PDP-10 land to UNIX, I learned ed for 5= th edition and somewhat pined for a screen editor.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Soon after u= pgrading to 6th edition at CMU, we found a visual editor called Fred - the = Friendly Editor, from Cornell IIRC (I think it's on the original USENIX= tape but I don't remember how we got it).=C2=A0 I had to hack in the P= erkin-Elmer Fox terminal support, but it was a superset of V6 ed so a prett= y trivial learning curve.=C2=A0

= However, since Fred had=C2=A0the terminal support compiled i= t and when I went to Tektronix a few years later, I had to add a whole bunc= h of new terminals and we quickly started running into the address issues o= n the 11/40 class systems.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Mark Bales was working as a summer s= tudent and had brought 2BSD with him (inc. vi and csh).=C2=A0 Poof, thanks = to termcap ex/vi could run on most every terminal we already had (in some m= anner) which Fred could not.=C2=A0 =C2=A0And because of termcap not having = to keep the code for the other terminals not being used in memory,=C2=A0eve= n though the editor itself was more complex, we could just squeeze that ver= sion on an 11/40 class system running Seventh Edition.=C2=A0 That made me t= ake notice.=C2=A0=C2=A0Again it was ed under the covers so the transition was= easy. I was pretty impressed with termcap, and soon thereafter I found mys= elf=C2=A0sending Mary Ann a couple of new terminal defini= tions for some missing Tek terminals like Tek 4025.=C2=A0=

Wit= h the VAX, and new ex/vi shows=C2=A0up and it = would not run on the PDP-11's, I was disappointed.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But the = old version still worked and I had started to notice that a version of= =C2=A0= vi had started to show up on most everything = I used, from VMS to=C2=A0the Cray's and later the PCs= , so really I never looked back.=C2=A0 It became the most po= rtable editor for my fingers as I had long ago forgotten EMACS (= even when we got Vaxen and Gosling EMACS shows up on the UNIX scene,= I never bother to really relearn it - I can use it if I have to= o,=C2=A0but not as well as vi these days).=C2=A0
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