From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 4966 invoked from network); 21 Sep 2022 21:48:21 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 21 Sep 2022 21:48:21 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF1AB409FB; Thu, 22 Sep 2022 07:48:15 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-oi1-f174.google.com (mail-oi1-f174.google.com [209.85.167.174]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EF04409EF for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2022 07:48:10 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-oi1-f174.google.com with SMTP id d64so6864864oia.9 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2022 14:48:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=+F/MPT9bBis5VNm7lMwYEN99sAW0a/JfezlBvXgmPlM=; b=QB9pmYlqC5njKEjIpWi1Sd7vOrBQkN5nEWwwSLTuGsv5i7hbxngcAlh/FZX6hQELzK TFTWshXEfACXet8XQCRcSUB4EK4/m64+gbauybdc3utzorQCj3hnS/ADGa33fsyLVznD /RIRw5NpnVRG2SHYtkTNlEOlCZGgMmkvvRoHw= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=+F/MPT9bBis5VNm7lMwYEN99sAW0a/JfezlBvXgmPlM=; b=rcFY15g3m+Vrp90QLvsPwDi9kXL6cC00TAWEQsMXnymf6m9lET4Q77u9U2tDp6ZaeM MrRn7RJSAran2XG4VAmgI9kX3FtBi12OhXo4rQvO5s42/AHzKfP+Zb5wPQRFSWguXzM/ zHV5oWBucCqEG43zL2sdoj+R/MgiJ3EmS8BTLFF02MgtzCBZfwM6uNyPdZV1CCyIeH1U vW6egXTG+La7JO85bYhFHbCoGPdCsEH3Eo9xNd1yYNKl1LIK16jN/PB9D+IGSl5PwOj0 ivb61ORG5oQd4XxeTkbV1HJJeLMU5fGNTuKauyrhFsfXvQM/TiHjUAU/eBRsKW1bkDTS FqWQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf1MPOgtOa4FIpW9zkuCtGMpRsdpkW5ensAmzrKzquzNJkNbWtXM CIuUEvKpCO7k1znKsg0vby2zZphYeJQQ8YM6/E7MYQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM4UPVofuDTTLiM9OYDzWzVEg+HfAqPrz1otxA5cCPCrRF6I9wHstczOh9QeXOPISmo8eSfFyEySVJLc5Kcb9og= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:1496:b0:350:4640:5462 with SMTP id e22-20020a056808149600b0035046405462mr4996491oiw.47.1663796829304; Wed, 21 Sep 2022 14:47:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2022 17:46:58 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Theodore Ts'o" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fd57db05e936e2d3" Message-ID-Hash: AX3TEBVGNUN2WX3SF6BFRJJO66BMJ3RZ X-Message-ID-Hash: AX3TEBVGNUN2WX3SF6BFRJJO66BMJ3RZ X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Fwd: Re: Early BSD license thread List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000fd57db05e936e2d3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Sure. And of course there will always be interpretations of how much one idea salted another. But the seeds of the discomfort come from these various solutions and frankly how much the original authors were bought into/part of the integration process. On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 5:14 PM Theodore Ts'o wrote: > On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 10:57:51AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote: > > The legal term '*copyright*' and historical term of '*provenance*.' I > > agree with Warner that I know of few if any cases where copyright was not > > maintained when it was in the code itself. And as he points out, please > > grep through the archives and I think that will be found to hold true. > > > > But I also think Rob rankle comment is fair. Joy and was noted for > > recognizing cool ideas and adding them into 'Berkeley UNIX. The line at > > the time was he took ideas and '*peed on them to make them smell like > > Berkeley*.' For example, 'Berkeley Joy Control' came from Kulp via Europe > > and MIT, the network stack famously started at BBN, and a lot of the > > support for limits and user controllers from Australia. > > > > Yes, the CSRG team did do a great deal of innovation as well as > > integration, but the line between the two was not always easy to see from > > the outside. > > Well, there can be a huge spectrum here, isn't there? Ranging from: > > * Take the code wholesale with no changes. > > * Take the code and make changes to match with local coding style. > > * Take the code and serially rewrite it so when you're done it > only vaguely resembles the original contribution. > > * Look at the code, get the ideas, and the reimplement it from > scratch, keeping the existing interface (or using the existing > interface as a starting point before extending it) > > * Look at the code, get the ideas, and reimplent it from scratch > with radically different interfaces. > > It sounds like all of these were used to some extent as part of the > BSD/CSRG integration process; is that right? > > - Ted > -- Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual --000000000000fd57db05e936e2d3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sure.=C2=A0 And of course there will alway= s be interpretations of how much one idea salted another.=C2=A0 But the see= ds of the discomfort come from these various solutions and frankly how much= the original authors were bought into/part of the integration process. =C2= =A0


On Wed, Sep 2= 1, 2022 at 5:14 PM Theodore Ts'o <t= ytso@mit.edu> wrote:
On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 = at 10:57:51AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
> The legal term '*copyright*' and historical term of '*prov= enance*.'=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I
> agree with Warner that I know of few if any cases where copyright was = not
> maintained when it was in the code itself.=C2=A0 And as he points out,= please
> grep through the archives and I think that will be found to hold true.=
>
> But I also think Rob rankle comment is fair.=C2=A0 Joy and was noted f= or
> recognizing cool ideas and adding them into 'Berkeley UNIX.=C2=A0 = The line at
> the time was he took ideas and '*peed on them to make them smell l= ike
> Berkeley*.' For example, 'Berkeley Joy Control' came from = Kulp via Europe
> and MIT, the network stack famously started at BBN, and a lot of the > support for limits and user controllers from Australia.
>
> Yes, the CSRG team did do a great deal of innovation as well as
> integration, but the line between the two was not always easy to see f= rom
> the outside.

Well, there can be a huge spectrum here, isn't there?=C2=A0 =C2=A0Rangi= ng from:

* Take the code wholesale with no changes.

* Take the code and make changes to match with local coding style.

* Take the code and serially rewrite it so when you're done it
=C2=A0 only vaguely resembles the original contribution.

* Look at the code, get the ideas, and the reimplement it from
=C2=A0 scratch, keeping the existing interface (or using the existing
=C2=A0 interface as a starting point before extending it)

* Look at the code, get the ideas, and reimplent it from scratch
=C2=A0 with radically different interfaces.

It sounds like all of these were used to some extent as part of the
BSD/CSRG integration process; is that right?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Ted
--
Sent from a handheld expect more typos t= han usual
--000000000000fd57db05e936e2d3--