From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 18928 invoked from network); 21 Sep 2022 14:59:45 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 21 Sep 2022 14:59:45 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B61D740A00; Thu, 22 Sep 2022 00:59:23 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f43.google.com (mail-vs1-f43.google.com [209.85.217.43]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BE4A8409FC for ; Thu, 22 Sep 2022 00:59:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f43.google.com with SMTP id 129so7000237vsi.10 for ; Wed, 21 Sep 2022 07:59:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=t6WoqYWneTpNpDaH3VJJ1ND5+QFd5FC7p/kgEz2faXg=; b=QNed1t0RCQijRNVmzJXwAGC6Im8+ff3cWXzaNr9lVURkbu535dLZBbfR0jTNhG2m8L wwBCxfVtP8sNuE1I9/gNAKzh0RSWM31+qw9SvDW+p9vmGdQ+jl6HY0XMUozDlK7w/DfP mPyvp8LFYACliLmb/TeNct9udbEgdq1u/SDdc= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=t6WoqYWneTpNpDaH3VJJ1ND5+QFd5FC7p/kgEz2faXg=; b=y/Rkajz041BtEWvu4Oa/7yIKlAF+hnS3pWuNtGo95jQ1ocdtEadUvitPlISl31R9IS smGJCmlhTew8zUkX+hEld+T6a4jQNz0cdqBjQSBVOLK+/TdUL/XxDwFTS4/82Udq1HAU LWbZRvGNW0HOkp0df5xQAV6vdY1ADht9bhrLLSw3d5XtsDirktYjPbAjBiHKG7t4/Nhj +b4/k6VrjUFqO7bSa85+7sVIfyonj65g9ZkGgohn5ltGB3sv1mEbj0GK4r9A3NUN509J TG4gU9qxY31rWEofGi9xFEq/w0+RCD39BMPSrXSVGYAVLauJIWyKvxaoEE0Wdm+Lb5W7 qIGw== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf2aBBG/TpEmYz51EK2okmyfFAgSt5E9z7Xm/HRVqucyS+gqbJaH HE1ZT7AbGYrraHSuULXllVJ5Xi3AuKwoBnLs7LVKu6KqugZlUA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM7xdPybzWRpf3jEF6ttpzuWsq3uCjrQP6tELdv9JkVdqhu7jEBsZBXkflI/UYW/ECDpam6qz72eKRaWRZ7GF+E= X-Received: by 2002:a67:a449:0:b0:39a:d4f5:f3f1 with SMTP id p9-20020a67a449000000b0039ad4f5f3f1mr7727765vsh.17.1663772298235; Wed, 21 Sep 2022 07:58:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2022 10:57:51 -0400 Message-ID: To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d2e94605e9312c6c" Message-ID-Hash: 7EWKS5KWJAS7YWQ7AVXDME4Y5XGBXXM2 X-Message-ID-Hash: 7EWKS5KWJAS7YWQ7AVXDME4Y5XGBXXM2 X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Fwd: Re: Early BSD license thread List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000d2e94605e9312c6c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable below in blue ... On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 9:47 AM Warner Losh wrote: > ... > > So, maybe it did happen, but I find no extant evidence of a copyright bei= ng > removed and replaced by Berkeley. If anything, once files started being > marked > with a copyright notice, they seem to be retained over several releases a= nd > on the 2BSD series where the code was merged into. > > On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 6:36 AM Rob Pike wrote: > >> It was a long time ago but it rankled at the time (and even came up in m= y >> Bell Labs interview): that copyright notice replaced whatever was there >> before. Code written and copyrighted by other institutions was absorbed >> into the Berkeley distribution and reattributed without credit. Joy told= me >> later that the lawyers made them do it. He was probably telling the trut= h, >> but that didn't make it OK. >> >> -rob >> > I think there are two different concepts that are getting mixed up here. The legal term '*copyright*' and historical term of '*provenance*.' I agree with Warner that I know of few if any cases where copyright was not maintained when it was in the code itself. And as he points out, please grep through the archives and I think that will be found to hold true. But I also think Rob rankle comment is fair. Joy and was noted for recognizing cool ideas and adding them into 'Berkeley UNIX. The line at the time was he took ideas and '*peed on them to make them smell like Berkeley*.' For example, 'Berkeley Joy Control' came from Kulp via Europe and MIT, the network stack famously started at BBN, and a lot of the support for limits and user controllers from Australia. Yes, the CSRG team did do a great deal of innovation as well as integration, but the line between the two was not always easy to see from the outside. And I think developers outside of UCB sometimes felt (to use Rob's words) 'rankled' for CSRG getting credit for some of innovation that really belonged to others, because the CSRG team was the distribution vehicle. =E1=90=A7 --000000000000d2e94605e9312c6c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
below in blue = ...

On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 9:47 AM War= ner Losh <imp@bsdimp.com> wrote= :
...

So, maybe it did happe= n, but I find no extant evidence of a copyright being
removed and replaced by Berkeley. If anything, once fil= es started being marked
with a cop= yright notice, they seem to be retained over several releases and
on the 2BSD series where the code was merge= d into.

On Wed, Sep 21, 2022 at 6:= 36 AM Rob Pike <r= obpike@gmail.com> wrote:
It was a long time ago but it rankled at t= he time (and even came up in my Bell Labs interview): that copyright notice= replaced whatever was there before. Code written and copyrighted by other = institutions was absorbed into the Berkeley distribution and reattributed w= ithout credit. Joy told me later that the lawyers made them do it. He was p= robably telling the truth, but that didn't make it OK.

=
-= rob
I think there are two different concepts that are getting= mixed up here.=C2=A0 The legal term 'copyright' and histori= cal term of 'provenance.'=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0I agree with Warner that I know of few if any cas= es where copyright was not maintained when it was in the code itself.=C2=A0= And as he points out, please grep through the archives and I think that wi= ll be found to hold true.=C2=A0

But I a= lso think Rob rankle=C2=A0comment is fair.=C2=A0=C2=A0Joy=C2=A0and was noted for recognizing cool ideas and = adding them into 'Berkeley UNIX.=C2=A0=C2=A0The line at the time was=C2=A0he took ideas= =C2=A0and 'peed on them to mak= e them smell like Berkeley.'=C2=A0For example, 'Berkeley Joy Control' came from Kulp = via Europe and MIT,=C2=A0the network sta= ck famously started at BBN, and a lot of the = support for limits and user controllers from=C2=A0Australia.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0

Yes, the CSRG team did do a great deal of innovation as well as int= egration, but the line between the two was not always easy to see from the = outside.=C2=A0 And I think developers outside of UCB sometimes felt (to use= Rob's words) 'rankled' for CSRG getting credit for some of inn= ovation that really belonged to others, because the CSRG team was the distr= ibution vehicle.
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