From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 7447 invoked from network); 15 Sep 2022 18:01:32 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 15 Sep 2022 18:01:32 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F6DA41747; Fri, 16 Sep 2022 04:01:26 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f47.google.com (mail-vs1-f47.google.com [209.85.217.47]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F12E540C36 for ; Fri, 16 Sep 2022 04:01:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f47.google.com with SMTP id h1so20109189vsr.11 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2022 11:01:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=kXdq/OyyulEmo2/dmwmfMqTkXnFaXBr5P8azbJDgDfs=; b=f25erJkKcANUOpSh/v4VvqD2ek4dionpUOFGlbLKVFh6Wd9eu4/KM2HCVLIQpEpgOC WF/aXxpzlzz4T1jDgInbGPXS2GhETWrsuJceTmOz87J80tL2BlTvmw+pddhBsjr8lQBg WW+BDYfjz0PvH3TPStqw55W6lvWOAkNwQQKdo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=kXdq/OyyulEmo2/dmwmfMqTkXnFaXBr5P8azbJDgDfs=; b=C9ag+AuuUbONesoRR2jiRFIW/k64R62wOKygoKLTO3DmWRIhjH5GtSS/aU6KTSVicY ryEuI6++qh/U3oynpDhP/zN6V/B35oWrVr8XMUR5wq+TBLYgtQZJmBmf/x3z8luuPlpc c+U7R6jF0XgnqNCXRp2LnAS/Btzzp8v+YiaZlZ530q6Z17Z4qrFbksJrdtQzNc+ZDPTJ E2nUPqZZg4K4MF2SG6dAUToSXU37WMEzWqTYQdNA6DQY1PXKxIbPTE5u996j3OxwYiYm V/n83Kc4JtD/8sQa/VreSVcd5+/C5g0v2OuFwcT7TgeVuwnFRKH39E2QTonT1G1++3xV HciA== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf0ukr3Tx0UXbnLsjNTHYzEIlOrzBDHhDa1ta4LCTyeO6A/3uT2F IEFEatR+CGifA+J15Akww+AK3nb9Z8u40P0+j64MZ1/fUZXPsg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM5ph9ALqR8st/duaqgy3BLtN6kG0PsXOtt1tW9fQa085WiraNhDnZE+vJ+ppr4t0q9a9dL0bY3dAkMMrUjW/ME= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:dc8:b0:398:8f8c:e83f with SMTP id e8-20020a0561020dc800b003988f8ce83fmr677655vst.47.1663264817873; Thu, 15 Sep 2022 11:00:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202209150423.28F4NBSg015512@freefriends.org> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2022 13:59:50 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a3192105e8bb0488" Message-ID-Hash: B2GX563YXHEPA6PTGX6H2U7L7XXXCBR4 X-Message-ID-Hash: B2GX563YXHEPA6PTGX6H2U7L7XXXCBR4 X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: tuhs@tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: The USL Toolchest from the 80s and 90s List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000a3192105e8bb0488 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 1:09 PM Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) < lyndon@orthanc.ca> wrote: > > I forget the exact registration steps, now. But for delivery you > set up a UUCP login for the toolchest site on your host, then they > would call you and transfer the files over. And bill you some > outrageous amount of money for the "long distance" charges they > incurred. It was quite the scam. If we had polled them instead > the LD costs would have been about 30% less. > IIRC there were a bunch of other charges too. It was not well thought out and was all part of what ultimately killed the core AT&T IP against the FOSS world. The harder the AT&T folks tried to force their way as the 'standard' the more allusive it became. The problem was that their monetization model for SW was broken (although to be fair this was true for a number of folks also). It was fine for some very specific things - like CAD/CAM where the higher effectiveness of an engineer / better accuracy etc.. could be measured. But the 'value' of H-D-B UUCP or KSH88 could never be directly calculated. So charging thousands of dollars just made little sense. Hey even if they had put a single 'Toolchest' source tape for say $5K they >>might<< have been able to sell it. But trying to do it piece meal and each program was hundreds to as I recall H-D-B and KS88 were close to 1K. So with the PC business where SW was priced 'high enough' so that people did not want to steal it, but you got the volume up, you could be successfu= l - $29.99 for Turbo Pascal is probably the best example I can think. As I have reported a couple of times. When what would end up becoming the Sys III license was being negotiated ~Winter 1980 was the one time I was in a smallish meeting with Bill Gates. Gates in complete exasperation with the AT&T 'suits' looked at them and said something I have never forgotten. Bill wanted to pay no more $25/copy for UNIX period. AT&T said if the volumes made it to millions they would drop to $1000/CPU (for a then $5-7K PC/AT). Mind you AT&T had just released its 3B20 and was sure the 3B would go up against IBM and DEC and take them on -- No more 370s or Vaxen!!! Anyway, Gates shook his head and said: *"You guys don't get it. The only thing that matters in the SW business is volume. The cost of goods is zero." * He was trying to help them understand that with SW you have to eat your development cost and either make the SW completely free (FOSS model) so close to it (Microsoft/Borland) model. BTW: for this list, I suppose we should be thankful. DEC never got it. They wanted $5K/CPU for the BLISS compiler AFTER you already bought your Vax. Imagine if they had given their tools away. PS Minor ... note after 40+ years I'm only starting to be heard at work. For those that know the Intel compilers are the same DNA as the DEC compilers and a lot of the same people. It's only been in the last year we >>finally<< won that the tools are free. Yes, we charge the commercial folks for support that care. But anyone can use them. =E1=90=A7 --000000000000a3192105e8bb0488 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 1:09= PM Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) <lyndon@orthanc.ca> wrote:

I forget the exact registration steps, now.=C2=A0 But for delivery you
set up a UUCP login for the toolchest site on your host, then they
would call you and transfer the files over.=C2=A0 And bill you some
outrageous amount of money for the "long distance" charges they incurred.=C2=A0 It was quite the scam.=C2=A0 If we had polled them instead<= br> the LD costs would have been about 30% less.
IIRC there were a bunch of other charges too.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0It was not well thought out and was all part of what ultimately killed t= he core AT&T IP against the FOSS world.=C2=A0 The harder the AT&T f= olks tried to force their way as the 'standard' the more allusive i= t became.=C2=A0 The problem was t= hat their monetization=C2=A0model for SW was broken (although to be fair th= is was true for a number of folks also).=C2=A0 It=C2=A0 was fine for some v= ery specific things - like CAD/CAM where the higher effectiveness of an eng= ineer / better accuracy etc.. could be measured.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But the 'v= alue' of H-D-B UUCP or KSH88 could never be directly calculated.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0So charging thousands of dollars just made little sense.=C2=A0 Hey ev= en if they had put a single 'Toolchest' source tape for say $5K the= y >>might<< have been able to sell it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But trying t= o do it piece meal and each program was hundreds to as I recall H-D-B and K= S88 were close to 1K.
<= br>
So with the PC busi= ness where SW was priced 'high enough' so that people did not want = to steal it, but you got the volume up, you could be successful=C2=A0 -=C2=A0 $29.99 for Turbo Pascal is probably the b= est example I can think.=C2=A0

As I have r= eported a couple of times.=C2=A0 =C2=A0When what would end up becoming the = Sys III license was being negotiated ~Winter 1980 was the one time I was in= a smallish meeting with Bill Gates.=C2=A0 Gates in complete exasperation w= ith the AT&T 'suits' looked at them and said something I have n= ever forgotten.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Bill wanted to pay no more $25/copy for UNIX pe= riod.=C2=A0 =C2=A0AT&T said if the volumes made it to millions they wou= ld drop to $1000/CPU (for a then $5-7K PC/AT).=C2=A0 Mind you AT&T had = just released its 3B20 and was sure the 3B would go up against IBM and DEC = and take them on=C2=A0--=C2=A0 No more 370s or Vaxen!!!=C2=A0=

Anyway, Gates shook his head and said: "You gu= ys don't get it.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The only thing that matters in the SW bus= iness is volume.=C2=A0 The cost of goods is zero."=C2=A0 He was tr= ying to help them understand that with SW you have to eat your development = cost and either make the SW completely free (FOSS model) so close to it (Mi= crosoft/Borland) model.=C2=A0

BTW: for th= is list, I suppose we should be thankful. DEC never got it.=C2=A0 They want= ed $5K/CPU for the BLISS compiler AFTER you already bought your Vax.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 Imagine if they had given their tools away.
=
PS Minor ... note after 40+ years I'm only starting to be hea= rd at work.=C2=A0 For those that know the Intel compilers are the same DNA = as the DEC compilers and a lot of the same people.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It's onl= y been in the last year we >>finally<< won that the tools are f= ree.=C2=A0 Yes, we charge the commercial folks for support that care.=C2=A0= But anyone can use them.=C2=A0 =C2=A0
3D""= =E1=90=A7
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