From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_28,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 2212 invoked from network); 8 Sep 2022 23:35:56 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 8 Sep 2022 23:35:56 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8471B4288E; Fri, 9 Sep 2022 09:35:44 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f50.google.com (mail-vs1-f50.google.com [209.85.217.50]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 56F47422D5 for ; Fri, 9 Sep 2022 09:35:41 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f50.google.com with SMTP id 67so121037vsv.2 for ; Thu, 08 Sep 2022 16:35:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=YoQkl6ynw1HKoA4HMuT/2q5bg9lu54nUj/UOPNlkqZY=; b=B5R0dq961jWUVmOD1/rk/0Y+kIVKSQCYiB9j5N3xnJCbjtooF6xdBbC5/sgyTGXz9z UdktPdF/cwNFsO9UL48ZVh+fpzxG/PWmypsoiVs80JUD86sqeLy+V4FmWH8nnWl4WCZ2 KIzh95Jtfuf1qxf3w02nRqnJslqVMdqPTon04= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=YoQkl6ynw1HKoA4HMuT/2q5bg9lu54nUj/UOPNlkqZY=; b=P+6oltmQI7lpjO8uDk4aC+5EUnR6jXkz0KjBEvlm26E7w9nefEPzqjqfww46t9mjBN MvkA/X+MxYadQn0+qTJXUG3oy6RInt3ihCPgnzXfnRF6xqiuio8vBXK/PR2tyxr6Avgj NGx83Rbj9Lyt/HPVZjzVhg+EcUxtYmV8/f5tX5UtR4xEYnZMtZJZk9snPkcQeeJBifvG OEX31E3YXM/GAsXMHHc7GehLNsLwrJ+hfSKXDvdJDJAYQoZSg+0wqaTLTV/5Fo9ueHGf a8zdGbq79U/AyLpqpdE/WNQwsrSsQ2dOjFO7OztzR22nslDLvxh0iwyFm/bh5rZafB1e 9AQw== X-Gm-Message-State: ACgBeo2K1FWJrLyyNgSUjw9Ab+KhaTigBPz680sOSABtAGMzuiCfPQkK vJRupxAB5rxnghs2mCVFyP+rXh39+VzQ5GKF8rVtVg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA6agR4SFYcP5V+6PvRhPX/zoHs5fY0ud01Rh1pNq1AOZXcCRy00b4C4CKvyrlLZ0wJmEnt61CxK+RWFwIjhyjz07Zs= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f641:0:b0:392:9ea5:ac01 with SMTP id u1-20020a67f641000000b003929ea5ac01mr4240198vso.54.1662680080379; Thu, 08 Sep 2022 16:34:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220908221639.GR11929@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20220908221639.GR11929@mcvoy.com> From: Clem Cole Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2022 19:34:13 -0400 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000910c4405e832dffc" Message-ID-Hash: E5STODTMZQN7TAXEQVACG2LCBRGDSFVP X-Message-ID-Hash: E5STODTMZQN7TAXEQVACG2LCBRGDSFVP X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: segaloco , TUHS X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Re-implementations/Clean-Rooms et al. List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000910c4405e832dffc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 8, 2022 at 6:16 PM Larry McVoy wrote: > > It was rewritten over time, > > which replaced AT&T's implementation. Which is all that was ever > claimed. > > And it's a false claim. > I believe you. But BSD's rewrite was good enough. The real key is the BSDi/UCB *vs.* USL/AT&T case was *not about the code (or copyrights).* That is the piece most hackers don't seem to understand. The case was about *tra= de secrets (or not) *and thus the *ideas*. BSDi/UCB released their system which clearly had started with code that had originated with AT&T and thus the *ideas* had to have originated there too. I think too many hackers get caught up in FOSS, GPL,* et al,* and miss the point. The real debt which we can never repay Doug, Ken, Dennis, and friends was their *ideas* and the way they broke down and solved problems. The code is a by-product, the existence proof that it was more than theory, but had a practical use. =E1=90=A7 --000000000000910c4405e832dffc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On T= hu, Sep 8, 2022 at 6:16 PM Larry McVoy <= lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
>=C2=A0It was rewritten over time,
> which replaced AT&T's implementation.=C2=A0 Which is all that = was ever claimed.

And it's a false claim.=C2=A0
I believe you.=C2=A0 But BSD's rewrite was good enough= .=C2=A0 The real key is the BSDi/UCB vs. USL/AT&T case was not about the code (or copyrights). That is the piece most hackers= don't seem to understand. The case was about trade secrets=C2=A0(or not) and thus the ideas.=C2=A0 BSDi/UCB released their system which clearly had star= ted with code that had originated=C2=A0with AT&T and thus the ide= as=C2=A0had to have originated there too.
<= span class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri= f">
I think too many hackers get caught up in FOSS, GPL, et al,= and miss the point.
The real debt which = we can never repay Doug, Ken, Dennis, and friends was their ideas an= d the way they broke=C2=A0down and solved problems.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The code is= a by-product, the existence proof that it was more than theory, but had a = practical use.=C2=A0
3D""=E1=90=A7 --000000000000910c4405e832dffc--