From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 915 invoked from network); 15 Jun 2020 13:58:13 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 15 Jun 2020 13:58:13 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 957A39C6FC; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 23:58:06 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95B739C24C; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 23:57:16 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="UkjwRO+9"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 40BB49C24C; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 23:57:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f169.google.com (mail-qk1-f169.google.com [209.85.222.169]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A4FD9C246 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 23:57:13 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f169.google.com with SMTP id q8so15710831qkm.12 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 06:57:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=vuy0PWSnd2bHzjUDji1n9DRSnn9EA97hecjthPB7a18=; b=UkjwRO+9quz0Tbhc2UVKtRu3tiSsCUUWHSryNrM6NniKCbpYprbeFs/3M75XVstaTQ 9MI6lowTWseDIEhAbZk/ynN0JMq/hYity/oFJmTnhqFavx8g5/R0b7xngHJnHvyrwTNq eznK8jLDHY+pEnIEh+vQxYenSkBszrYFc7sKw= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=vuy0PWSnd2bHzjUDji1n9DRSnn9EA97hecjthPB7a18=; b=qCd+86AwxPAKHW2urJqn62Tz+wtKjtXjfPMlGcJoYcfjKaf1N4yb7C/tk6NLTd7H2m n6phw21it97si2CYs3+BxL74OPTxnxLH2naIGIQO6TzjFX2NX3nDYkfKUsMu5X8iZ2ka Vg7lW+eswJjROdHbaugWNfmEpmr1Na77QV+GzQJGMjw6gdm8aMM5sZD5yVMCjk+Gt+Vr QSjhh6GBwQkYKKvr/auMCuL4qR1e8DizDOyNZdXetyPDZ3S5n1bU7IuIoGjpicyyPQkC CeEexM4ERf6MhLd+Yrxgc5ywN2KhatX44Bs2CB2o/UvFIpfYwQROOUxBcYzQptYlu3SG YJFQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530aZbYzSuEKDrwAQYiwc2rVddeaIueLfLIxxTf1F9JHkINpLCIu aE1ZqGLccXIIBz+vFcELJtgR1I4iAdrBfVQWjZQOFw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzTtyIWo8lqE60l5B8+rkPorHGfV+hGbYULIukQCD7blj0Uqp9V7na4mFJaECIya8kS0o+wVgev+E9iY0Hdf+Q= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1321:: with SMTP id p1mr15480464qkj.476.1592229432397; Mon, 15 Jun 2020 06:57:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200614225208.GB6122@minnie.tuhs.org> <7wsgewophe.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: <7wsgewophe.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> From: Clem Cole Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2020 09:56:46 -0400 Message-ID: To: Lars Brinkhoff Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b8283005a81fcd39" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Fwd: Origins and life of the pg pager X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list , Michael Siegel Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000b8283005a81fcd39 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" First, as for pg(1) itself, I thought it came from one of the non-Research labs, like Holmdel or Indian Hill. I certainly remember using it on AT&T based system before System V arrived on the scene. It's possible, tjk had it from USG, but I think it's more likely I saw it from someone like Phil Karn. We also had pg(1) at Tek until I was introduced to more(1) probably originally from Jim Kleckner and the CAD folks [which worked better and pg(1) -- which means I probably brought pg(1) to Tek, unless it came from one the Purdue folks like Ward, I don't remember]. I also know pg(1) was available for PWB 3.0 at some point, as we had it at Masscomp before we got System V and we had it the AT&T 'universe' but I don't remember the provenance of that code (again I could have brought it with me, but I think it came to Masscomp via MIT). That said, Warren's PWB 3.0/SYS III source tree does not show binary or source, which makes the thought that it was AT&T based, but originated at a lab other than Summit or MH. On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 1:41 AM Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Daniel Halbert wrote to comp.society.folklore in 1994: > "I was a first-year graduate student at UC Berkeley in 1978. I had > been an undergraduate at MIT, and had used the ITS timesharing systems > there, which ran on PDP-10's. ITS put a "--MORE--" at the bottom of > the screen when one typed out files [..] > I believe that to be true. Wikipedia says "more" was written by Daniel Halbert and expanded by Eric Shienbrood > and Geoff Peck. > I also believe that is partially true and Mary Ann is actually correct in the provenance. I think Eric arrived later than Dan (maybe a year later), but was also ex-MIT, and he too had used/seen --MORE-- on ITS as Dan had. But I was under the impression Eric started over. Then a few years after Eric, Geoff worked with Eric's sources to add a few features. As for starting over/hacking on the program from Dan's original code base, it's hard to call that one, as I recall that Dan's version was not much more than a hack on to cat(1). i.e. the original version was pretty simple, and I don't remember that it 'knew' about the type of terminal being used, get info from TERMCAP *et al*. [My intro to Dan's version was at Tek, BTW but was quickly replaced with Eric's TERMCAP version which I think I got from Mary Ann, but might have also been via the CAD connection - we in TekLabs had written all of the TERMCAP support for the Tek 4025 and family and I was working to get it all back into the UCB database, so we got a bunch of early PDP-11 based TERMCAP/curses code to help debug things since the 4025 supported some interesting modes]. To be fair, ITS and Dan certainly should get credit for introducing the idea of the terminal pager to UCB, but it really was Eric that created the more(1) program framework that took off and eventually did begat less(1), pg(1), p(1) and others. As for less(1) itself, the Gnu folks seem to have started with Geoff's version (which I think is the version in 4.2 BSD if you look at SCCS delta in Kurt's disks), with the biggest addition was for the user to be able to go backward and look at some of the text that had already scrolled off the page. But as pointed out elsewhere, after the Gnu folks had peed all over it; as Doug says, (and I suspect most of us agree) it really became a sort of lesson in featuritis. But as discussed on many things in the historical computer world, more/less/pg/p often comes back to taste -> more(1) and p(1) were much more directed a doing one job well. As Larry says, there are features of less(1) which can be handy depending on your environment -- if you don't have a window manager/BLIT or today's user interfaces with unlimited scrolling (*i.e. *still on an ADM3A or VT-100), then many of the features of less(1) probably are considered a nice to have, you got used to them and it became your standard [burned in the ROMs in your fingers like csh(1) and vi(1) into my own]. But as Rob and Doug have pointed out, p(1) is more than sufficient and the 'extras' that programs like less(1) in a modern and clean environment start having doubtful long term value. Certainly, the 'cost' in complexity and 'code bloat' seems like a poor trade-off. But the assumption to me is that the desire for those type of features are fulfilled with different tools in the current world, but if you grew up with using them (say like Larry) I can see the value. Clem --000000000000b8283005a81fcd39 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
First, as for pg(1) itself, I thought it came from one= of the non-Research labs, like Holmdel or Indian Hill.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I certa= inly remember using it on AT&T based system=C2=A0before System V arrive= d on the scene.=C2=A0 =C2=A0It's possible, tjk had it from USG, but I t= hink it's more likely I saw it from someone like Phil Karn.=C2=A0 We al= so had pg(1) at Tek until I was introduced to more(1) probably originally f= rom Jim Kleckner and the CAD folks [which worked better and pg(1) -- which = means I probably brought pg(1) to Tek, unless it came from one the Purdue f= olks like Ward, I don't remember].=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I also know pg(1)= was available for PWB 3.0 at some point, as we had it at Masscomp before w= e got System V and we had it the AT&T 'universe' but I don'= t remember the provenance of that code (again I could have brought it with = me, but I think it came to Masscomp via MIT).=C2=A0 =C2=A0That said, Warren= 's PWB 3.0/SYS III=C2=A0source tree does not show binary or source, whi= ch makes the thought that it was AT&T based, but originated at a lab ot= her than Summit or MH.=C2=A0=C2=A0

On M= on, Jun 15, 2020 at 1:41 AM Lars Brinkhoff <lars@nocrew.org> wrote:
Daniel Halbert wrote to comp.society.folklore in 1994= :
=C2=A0 "I was a first-year graduate student at UC Berkeley in 197= 8. I had
=C2=A0 been an undergraduate at MIT, and had used the ITS timesharing syste= ms
=C2=A0 there, which ran on PDP-10's. ITS put a "--MORE--" at = the bottom of
=C2=A0 the screen when one typed out files [..]
I believe that to be true.=C2=A0
<= div>
Wikipedia s= ays "more" was written by Daniel Halbert and expanded by Eric= Shienbrood and Geoff Peck.
I also believe that is partially true and Mary Ann is actually cor= rect in the provenance.

I=C2=A0think Eric= arrived later than Dan (maybe a year later), but was also ex-MIT, and he t= oo had used/seen --MORE-- on ITS as Dan had.=C2=A0 But I was under the impr= ession Eric started over.=C2=A0 Then a few years after Eric, Geoff worked w= ith Eric's sources to add a few features. =C2=A0As for start= ing over/hacking on the program from Dan's original code base, it's= hard to call that one, as=C2=A0 I recall that Dan's version was not mu= ch more than a hack on to cat(1). i.e. the=C2=A0original version= was pretty simple, and I don't remember that it 'knew' about t= he type of terminal being used, get info from TERMCAP et al.=C2=A0 [= My intro to Dan's version was at Tek, BTW but was quickly replaced with= Eric's TERMCAP version which I think I got from Mary Ann, but might ha= ve also been via the CAD connection - we in TekLabs had written all of the = TERMCAP support for the Tek 4025 and family and I was working to get it all= back into the UCB database, so we got a bunch of early PDP-11 based TERMCA= P/curses code to help debug things since the 4025 supported some interestin= g modes].

To be fair, ITS and Dan certain= ly should get credit for introducing the idea of the terminal pager to UCB,= but it really was Eric that created the more(1) program framework that too= k off and eventually did begat less(1), pg(1), p(1) and others.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 As for less(1) itself, the Gnu folks seem to have=C2=A0started with Geo= ff's version (which I think is the version in 4.2 BSD if you look at SC= CS delta in Kurt's disks), with the biggest addition was for the user t= o be able to go backward and look at some of the text that had already scro= lled off the page.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But as pointed out elsewhere, after the=C2= =A0Gnu folks had peed all over it; as Doug says, (and I suspect most of us = agree) it really became a sort of lesson in featuritis.
=


B= ut as discussed on many things in the historical computer world, more/less/= pg/p often comes back to taste ->=C2=A0 more(1) and p(1) were much more = directed a doing one job well.=C2=A0 =C2=A0As Larry says, there are feature= s of less(1) which can be handy depending on your environment -- if you don= 't have a window manager/BLIT or today's user interfaces with unlim= ited scrolling (i.e. still on an ADM3A or VT-100), then many of the = features of less(1) probably are considered a nice to have, you got used to= them and it became your standard [burned in the ROMs in your fingers like = csh(1) and vi(1) into my own].=C2=A0 But as Rob and Doug have pointed out, = p(1) is more than sufficient and the 'extras' that programs like le= ss(1) in a modern and clean environment start having doubtful long term val= ue.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Certainly, the 'cost' in complexity and 'code b= loat' seems like a poor trade-off.=C2=A0 But the assumption to me is th= at the desire for those type of features are fulfilled=C2=A0with different = tools in the current world,=C2=A0but if you grew up with=C2=A0using=C2=A0th= em (say like Larry) I can see the=C2=A0value.
<= br>
Clem=C2=A0
--000000000000b8283005a81fcd39--