From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 5c150da4 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 13:53:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id D55459BCDC; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 23:53:39 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B5219BC9A; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 23:53:14 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="eDZchJsl"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 258B39BC9A; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 23:53:12 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wm1-f50.google.com (mail-wm1-f50.google.com [209.85.128.50]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 73DBA9BC99 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 23:53:11 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wm1-f50.google.com with SMTP id t17so154112wmi.2 for ; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 06:53:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rWWXDsZywExAXVfLK3D7pC5FqM1Pm/NzzLRL0f4XJfI=; b=eDZchJsl/T+GGhMCmDb2DueLfjaDs3fh5jxbqY2EKfI8YlxuqQvVDLj2Yj5u8fnPvX oxMVMV6nhgqwm2tsY+CCgtPznYa72FZn+CRV7o6uGS8wfeSs+FiVT3egQKSNwrUEjUib rppp3z536XJLa5hXId5np8SWj7KdUpeQcXhHo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rWWXDsZywExAXVfLK3D7pC5FqM1Pm/NzzLRL0f4XJfI=; b=TKHli9akd9lj9Fm+W/dZSqUgum0cxwAxQ45aWJSeaeMNRVYj3vgEzb4yCh7CS/7D+W oBLdFOtTq5PC3VlSCIuvr1jw59DGFigoUVKuSRhinpRpJTIjiC6BuL7Nrd3bBZK4xWkO FwhFdcIXjd14mBuuXj5bhLq9jMPdAwB8OxFAVQ5QNah9r9t/+VJjAHzo73lLWZM8zrpK woREa0QyIvW3VGXN4RoCl/HSXpdjeYrbLWLxDtUACWpHPP7AqxBBQjBBMG5M4a8TLCdy LnjyUv8H9q0cgNABCXQ345t6zOlzgzS8932uoD1G9uV68aQGOSY7R2vZ1KPTtut18VZN EpcQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUHD96ojbALtHG21K7r+v/YenpeU1MRYhOA3veDZXpNlrbmqqEg h+S237GDdJ8imVfEjSWNDIZSXY3ddroNVLSAAoW12A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyts0BUKJZSITBDKsUcrbw3DDeUSJrJ3kIdDxR4SbYrKTWyFFooTv/hskgNfnUlJ4VsJDopLzDaw8tK5GUO03A= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:2015:: with SMTP id g21mr4957237wmg.33.1567000389748; Wed, 28 Aug 2019 06:53:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <312b39a1-2944-100f-55e0-fc65b504d43d@kilonet.net> <20190827024511.GU13570@mcvoy.com> <20190827145556.GD13570@mcvoy.com> <20190827224002.GB15511@mcvoy.com> <20190827225955.GC15511@mcvoy.com> <20190828040540.GT13570@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20190828040540.GT13570@mcvoy.com> From: Clem Cole Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2019 09:52:42 -0400 Message-ID: To: Larry McVoy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000981cfa05912db5ff" Subject: Re: [TUHS] [SPAM] Re: If not Linux, then what? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000981cfa05912db5ff Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 12:06 AM Larry McVoy wrote: > I could be wrong but that's my memory. What he told me was streams was > for line disciplines for tty drivers. > Rob - this syncs with what Dennis I had talked about too *i.e.* Using streams for the serial interface; as the line disciplines stuff was a mess by that point. I cannt say I remember talking to him about using streams for networking. But I will say, I did agree that when we looked later at Stellar; but stuck with using sockets. This was for no other reason than to ensure that the BSD code 'just worked' and for a product, which where I was at the time (and I think Larry also at Sun), ensuring existing code worked (and worked efficiently), has to be the high order bit. I do hear you about many of the deficancies of 'pure joy.' It seems that it is always difficult as systems implementors to decide when to have an 'ice age' and try to kill off the old code and when to evolve it. IMHO: the code running user space that exploited the networking layer was still new enough, that evolution (*i.e.* hanging on an interface that was seemly 'good enough' - sockets) was more attractive than revolution. FWIW: we can now analyize and argue why BSD UNIX and the socket interface were what made it happen, but the historical fact is that sockets did seed the user space network code base. Also, I will observe that your comments about replacing MPX are a solid memory for me also, IIRC Greg developed MPX for datakit originally. He had sent me a copy at CMU in the late 1970s (but before V7 was out the door) and we had it in our v6++/CMU distr front -end system. I also remember messing with it in on the Teklabs system. Because I had messed with it at CMU aqnd was familar with its semantics, we we got the 3COM UNET code base (which was the first commercial IP/TCP implementation and it ran in user space unlike the later BBN Gurwitiz code base), and I rewrote some of Greg Shaw and Bruce Borden's stuff to use MPX. I'm trying to remember how their code worked before we hacked it -- (maybe Rand Pipes); but that was too many beers ago for my brain to still have it. I'm pretty sure Greg/Bruce took this back to 3Com when we were done. Sadly, the UNET stuff seems to have been lost. Clem --000000000000981cfa05912db5ff Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 12:0= 6 AM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> w= rote:
I could be= wrong but that's my memory.=C2=A0 What he told me was streams was
for line disciplines for tty drivers.=C2=A0

=
Rob - this syncs with what Dennis I had talked about too i.e. Usi= ng streams for the serial interface; as the line disciplines stuff was a me= ss by that point.=C2=A0 I cannt say I remember talking to him about using s= treams for networking.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But I will say, I did agree that when we= looked later at Stellar; but stuck with using sockets.=C2=A0 This was for = no other reason than to ensure that the BSD code 'just worked' and = for a product, which where I was at the time (and I think Larry also at Sun= ), ensuring existing code worked (and worked efficiently), has to be the hi= gh order bit.

I do hear you about many of the deficanc= ies of 'pure joy.'=C2=A0 It seems that it is always difficult as sy= stems implementors to decide when to have an 'ice age' and try to k= ill off the old code and when to evolve it.=C2=A0 IMHO: the code running us= er space that exploited the networking layer was still new enough, that evo= lution (i.e. hanging on an interface that was seemly 'good enoug= h' - sockets) was more attractive than revolution.=C2=A0 FWIW: we can n= ow analyize and argue why BSD UNIX and the socket interface were what made = it happen, but the historical fact is that sockets did seed the user space = network code base.

Also, I will observe that your comm= ents about replacing MPX are a solid memory for me also, IIRC Greg develope= d MPX for datakit originally.=C2=A0 He had sent me a copy at CMU in the lat= e 1970s (but before V7 was out the door) and we had it in our v6++/CMU dist= r front -end system. I also remember messing with it in on the Teklabs syst= em. Because I had messed with it at CMU aqnd was familar with its semantics= , we we got the 3COM UNET code base (which was the first commercial IP/TCP = implementation and it ran in user space unlike the later BBN Gurwitiz code = base), and I rewrote some of Greg Shaw and Bruce Borden's stuff to use = MPX.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I'm trying to remember how their code worked before we= hacked it -- (maybe Rand Pipes); but that was too many beers ago for my br= ain to still have it.=C2=A0 I'm pretty sure Greg/Bruce took this back t= o 3Com when we were done.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Sadly, the UNET stuff seems to have b= een lost.

Clem
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