From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 17647 invoked from network); 20 May 2023 13:44:11 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 20 May 2023 13:44:11 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F1B041085; Sat, 20 May 2023 23:44:05 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-x92d.google.com (mail-ua1-x92d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::92d]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AC0241083 for ; Sat, 20 May 2023 23:43:54 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-x92d.google.com with SMTP id a1e0cc1a2514c-783fc329e7eso1146042241.2 for ; Sat, 20 May 2023 06:43:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1684590233; x=1687182233; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=BlQT101XsQ983xbqp1aNqoeZC0r9UTASO+1vG/BY6lU=; b=hn8b2UaHWUZkM3KUTdfURDpH/0W907/lDzG46pjhkmX/bl9nIPKxQ2PDkRiDB0aa5U tzknVWLZCi3EHPsaj4kiyXdqdUvqz63wOpHIvxAUbfqTAY92rZJh9YvlVYs8TRrVfahB 7U7rMHlSdhbIi49cQ0i7c3zhZwbzybXcyeW9o= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1684590233; x=1687182233; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=BlQT101XsQ983xbqp1aNqoeZC0r9UTASO+1vG/BY6lU=; b=FUySmcMTHQ4cqJ4Y22gr1VtGjvvA7zVdCrjYdJ7SHQe1m9ex1283tnraQ+kAm6baqb jo+pEK4O6cgP4J4dXlNJBpNqxRXIdNVt2N+NJ4af7EoDCf3WdNrej39tCXgxO/Uw8+ug +iLGjZuUTGM9gZwkuFYhtpzKApZpOVsu7CCYkmHtvE7Kt5RhhjkSUEQbJQ5ltszbF1pY rqedbdrRLrHh/vwleuMMVeo3Eykqk7Xf69NR9a3XX5H99Vs3mvPt8Gb973t9GFADBZqB 8O/iIK9yRk5dM8b49WE8sO8NFGwF7hulFOkzJ+XQLr6MBpEpykbnseHAqzPcKK4zTBrq C4Eg== X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDzQKbJiKNVJ+pzlVPt1DDXa92FbKntpqYzi76r9vxRYdG/ZUaT6 W5DFvlt3DmnzRXc8CJgNw6yWfLhHpHXQ6q/3wqnzeQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ6sfT8x/szBmf0/If/w4b9G3LlY8HbcLNGy5dnzFLsMDlYRGaPTHZwGaWmKCrYncHfLmsbpHiKkPeQe+DnDf1U= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f1cf:0:b0:42f:e81b:a803 with SMTP id v15-20020a67f1cf000000b0042fe81ba803mr686425vsm.31.1684590233007; Sat, 20 May 2023 06:43:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Sat, 20 May 2023 09:43:26 -0400 Message-ID: To: segaloco Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006e4cf805fc203a3c" Message-ID-Hash: OANPK6CCG3TYSH7Y3Z2IUDB6ZY6RI5DO X-Message-ID-Hash: OANPK6CCG3TYSH7Y3Z2IUDB6ZY6RI5DO X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Documentation for Sys-V basic interpreter List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000006e4cf805fc203a3c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Matt - again, thank you. I just did a diff between the man pages from the System III version on TUHS and the version I have from Kirk's CD set [which was what we had a UCB]. The System III version looks different from the UCB man page (*e.g*., no plot() functions and a few other things). So, I did a little checking last night and wrote a couple of emails to some folks. The evidence I have found does seem to me that Dick Haight wro= te the original bs(1) command. Note that Dolotta, Haight, Piskorik, and Mashey were the original PWB 1.0 core team, as it were. But ... looking at my printed PWB 1.0 manual, there does not seem to be a bs(1) man page. However, we know that while PWB was never released officially outside of the Bell System - although parts of PWB 'leaked' to MIT, CMU, and UCB [probably via the OYOC's -- Noel's MIT system is clearly influenced by PWB 1.0 and I know the CMU system we had was also thanks to folks like tjk and Phil Karn]. The point is that many/most of the commands from PWB [with SCCS being the most important], if not the full kernel itself, arrived in those places. So a semi-educated >>WAG<< ... with the evidence being that 1. Haight's bs(1) was different from Ken's bas(1) which was in V7, 2. bs(1) is on Kirk's CD (disk4), 3. we know parts of PWB leaked from Bell, 4. I personally remember having it at UCB; Kirk's version at UCB predated the System III/V one you have, and it is likely an either Haight version from PWB 1.0 somehow. We know a Dale and their team in Columbus not only wrote their own enhancements, but they also took the source from all over: Research, PWB, and some of the universities. The CB/UNIX folks likely updated bs(1), and later, when some of the CB UNIX enhancement made it back to Summit and in PWB 2, 3, and the like - that's where the updated version appeared. Clem =E1=90=A7 On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 12:29=E2=80=AFAM segaloco via TUHS = wrote: > Here are raw[1] and nroff-d[2] restorations of the CB-UNIX 2.1 stamped > page: > > [1] - https://pastebin.com/EAjMyvSn > [2] - https://pastebin.com/Dgh1g5q8 > > According to a diff with the 3.0 manpage in the tree[3], these are some > changes of note from CB 2.1 to PWB 3.0: > > - Added ibase, obase > - Added elif and using a single fi to end an if elif else chain > - Added return for returning from function calls > - Added support for tables (arrays based on key-value pairs) > - The plot(11) routine swaps the corners about the y axis > - A bug is removed indicating a limit of 250 lines, 250 variables, and > artificial truncation of names to six characters. > > Unfortunately the CB 2.1 page on the archive[4] doesn't indicate anything > of particular note that wasn't pretty much the same in PWB 3.0. > > [3] - > https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=3DSysIII/usr/src/man/man1/bs.1 > [4] - > https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/USDL/CB_Unix/cbunix_man1_01.pd= f > (Page 32-39) > > - Matt G. > ------- Original Message ------- > On Friday, May 19th, 2023 at 5:31 PM, Clem Cole wrote: > > Matt. > > Does the CB man page match the PWB 3 version? I may be mixing something u= p > in my memory so I ask because I seem to remember there were some > differences between some scripts that came from different places ( We did= a > lot with graphics in the cad group and when we had tools that came from > other places it was often graphics that bit us which is why I think that > sticks in my mind). I=E2=80=99ll have to try looking at the version we ha= d at UCB > in a bit. > > As for doc the only thing I remember was a man page for the tool. > > Clem > > On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 4:19 PM segaloco via TUHS wrote: > >> The earliest documentation I can spot is the bs(1) man page dated >> November, 1979 in the CB-UNIX 2.3 Manual (although the page itself is >> tagged CB-UNIX 2.1.) >> >> This appears to be the same lineage as what we see in the commercial PWB >> releases, however, the earliest backstop I have on that is June, 1980 wi= th >> 3.0. PWB 1.0 contains no such page, and unfortunately the situation righ= t >> around 1979 is still a bit fuzzy re: PWB 2.0 and UNIX/TS. That said, the >> preface to the CB-UNIX 2.3 manual (which is also a 2.1 page from 1979) p= ays >> no credit to the UNIX/TS 1.1 nor PWB 2.0 manuals the way the PWB 3.0 >> preface does, so perhaps bs(1) started in CB? >> >> Looking forward, this utility persists up til SVR2, but is gone as of th= e >> SVR3 globe-with-UNIX-lines manual series. Curiously, it was also omitted >> from the 3B20 PWB 4.1 manual, but the 5.0 and subsequent System V 1 and = 2 >> manuals don't have a hardware-exclusivity masthead mark, so this was lik= ely >> made portable/ported to 3B20 sometime around '81. In any case, none of t= he >> man pages in any of these manuals indicate any memoranda or other papers= in >> the SEE ALSO. Doesn't mean one doesn't exist, but points to the likeliho= od >> that the manpage is really all you get documentation-wise. Even the BTL >> versions don't mention any papers. >> >> In any case, that's what I could turn up, there is a bs(1) manpage in th= e >> following versions: >> >> - 1979 - CB-UNIX 2.1 >> - 1980 - PWB 3.0/System III >> - 1981 - PWB 4.x (Non 3B20) >> - 1981 - CB-UNIX 2.3 (unmodified from 2.1) >> - 1982 - PWB 5.0 >> - 1983 - System V >> - 1984 - System V Release 2 >> >> Hope that helps. All of these save the 4.x version should be in various >> places around. I don't remember seeing anything outrageously different >> between 3.0 and 5.0, so it very well may be that the 4.x manpage could b= e >> easily synthesized with a diff, but I don't have a physical page to prov= e >> anything. >> >> - Matt G. >> ------- Original Message ------- >> >> On Friday, May 19th, 2023 at 8:06 AM, KenUnix >> wrote: >> >> Hi. >> >> Was any documentation ever done for the basic interpreter >> that was on System-V? >> >> Things like allowed keywords or special keywords. >> >> Thanks >> Ken >> >> >> -- >> WWL =F0=9F=93=9A Okey Dokey OK Boss >> >> >> >> -- > Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual > > > --0000000000006e4cf805fc203a3c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Matt - again, thank=C2=A0you.=C2=A0 I just did a diff b= etween the man pages from the=C2=A0System III version on TUHS and the versi= on I have from Kirk's CD set [which was what we had a UCB].=C2=A0 The S= ystem III version looks different from the UCB man page (e.g., no pl= ot() functions and a few other things).=C2=A0 =C2=A0So, I did a little chec= king last night and wrote a couple of emails to some folks.=C2=A0 The evide= nce I have found does=C2=A0seem to me that=C2=A0Dick Haight=C2=A0wrote= the original bs(1) command.=C2=A0 Note that Dolotta, Haight, Piskorik, and= Mashey were the original PWB 1.0 core team, as it were.=C2=A0 =C2=A0But ..= . looking at my printed PWB 1.0 manual, there does not seem to be a bs(1) m= an page.=C2=A0 However, we know that while PWB was never released officiall= y outside=C2=A0of the Bell System - although parts of PWB 'leaked' = to MIT, CMU, and UCB [probably via the OYOC's -- Noel's MIT system = is clearly influenced by PWB 1.0 and I know the CMU system we had was also = thanks to folks like tjk and Phil Karn].=C2=A0 =C2=A0The point is that many= /most of the commands from PWB [with SCCS being the most important],=C2=A0i= f not the full kernel itself, arrived in those places.

So a semi-educated >>WAG<< ...=C2=A0 with the evid= ence being that
  1. Haight's bs(1) was different from= Ken's bas(1) which was in V7,
  2. bs(1) is on Kirk's CD = (disk4),=C2=A0=C2=A0
  3. we know parts of PWB leaked from Bell,= =C2=A0
  4. I personally remember having it at UCB;
    5. Kirk's version at UCB predated the System III/V one you have, and it i= s likely=C2=A0an either Haight version from PWB 1.0 somehow.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 W= e know a Dale and their team in Columbus not only=C2=A0wrote th= eir own enhancements, but they also took the=C2=A0source from all over: Res= earch, PWB, and some of the universities.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The CB/UNIX folks li= kely updated bs(1), and later, when some of the CB UNIX enhancement made it= back to Summit and in PWB 2, 3, and the like - that's where the update= d version appeared.

Clem
<= /div>
3D""=E1=90=A7

On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 12:29=E2=80=AFAM segaloco v= ia TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
Here are raw[1] = and nroff-d[2] restorations of the CB-UNIX 2.1 stamped page:


According to a diff with the 3.0 manpage in t= he tree[3], these are some changes of note from CB 2.1 to PWB 3.0:
- Added ibase, obase
- Added elif and using a single fi to e= nd an if elif else chain
- Added return for returning from function c= alls
- Added support for tables (arrays based on key-value pairs)
=
- The plot(11) routine swaps the corners about the y axis
- A = bug is removed indicating a limit of 250 lines, 250 variables, and artifici= al truncation of names to six characters.

Unfortunately th= e CB 2.1 page on the archive[4] doesn't indicate anything of particular= note that wasn't pretty much the same in PWB 3.0.

[3]= - = https://www.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=3DSysIII/usr/src/man/man1/bs.1

- Matt= G.
------- Original Message -------
On Friday, May 19th, 2023 at 5:31 PM, Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:

Matt.

Does the CB man page match the PWB 3 version? I may be mixi= ng something up in my memory so I ask because I seem to remember there were= some differences between some scripts that came from different places ( We= did a lot with graphics in the cad group and when we had tools that came f= rom other places it was often graphics that bit us which is why I think tha= t sticks in my mind). I=E2=80=99ll have to try looking at the version we = had at UCB in a bit.

As= for doc the only thing I remember was a man page for the tool.

Clem

On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 4= :19 PM segaloco via TUHS <tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
<= /div>
Th= e earliest documentation I can spot is the bs(1) man page dated November, 1= 979 in the CB-UNIX 2.3 Manual (although the page itself is tagged CB-UNIX 2= .1.)

This appears to be the same lineage as what we see in= the commercial PWB releases, however, the earliest backstop I have on that= is June, 1980 with 3.0. PWB 1.0 contains no such page, and unfortunately t= he situation right around 1979 is still a bit fuzzy re: PWB 2.0 and UNIX/TS= . That said, the preface to the CB-UNIX 2.3 manual (which is also a 2.1 pag= e from 1979) pays no credit to the UNIX/TS 1.1 nor PWB 2.0 manuals the way = the PWB 3.0 preface does, so perhaps bs(1) started in CB?

Looking forward, this utility persists up til SVR2, but is gone as of the= SVR3 globe-with-UNIX-lines manual series. Curiously, it was also omitted f= rom the 3B20 PWB 4.1 manual, but the 5.0 and subsequent System V 1 and 2 ma= nuals don't have a hardware-exclusivity masthead mark, so this was like= ly made portable/ported to 3B20 sometime around '81. In any case, none = of the man pages in any of these manuals indicate any memoranda or other pa= pers in the SEE ALSO. Doesn't mean one doesn't exist, but points to= the likelihood that the manpage is really all you get documentation-wise. = Even the BTL versions don't mention any papers.

In any= case, that's what I could turn up, there is a bs(1) manpage in the fol= lowing versions:

- 1979 - CB-UNIX 2.1
- 1980 - PWB 3= .0/System III
- 1981 - PWB 4.x (Non 3B20)
- 1981 - CB-UNIX 2.3 = (unmodified from 2.1)
- 1982 - PWB 5.0
- 1983 - System V
<= div style=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">= - 1984 - System V Release 2

Hope that helps. All of these = save the 4.x version should be in various places around. I don't rememb= er seeing anything outrageously different between 3.0 and 5.0, so it very w= ell may be that the 4.x manpage could be easily synthesized with a diff, bu= t I don't have a physical page to prove anything.

- Ma= tt G.
------- Original Message -------

On Friday, May 19th, 2023 at 8:06 AM, KenUnix <ken.unix.guy@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi.

Was any docu= mentation ever done for the basic interpreter
that was on System-= V?

Things like allowed keywords or special keyword= s.

Thanks
Ken

<= br>--
WW= L =F0=9F=93=9A Okey Dokey OK Boss



--
Sen= t from a handheld expect more typos than usual

--0000000000006e4cf805fc203a3c--