From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 208402162E for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2024 16:23:07 +0100 (CET) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E7C04267C; Sat, 14 Dec 2024 01:23:02 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2c.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2c]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6DBB4267B for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2024 01:22:58 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2c.google.com with SMTP id ada2fe7eead31-4afed7b7d1bso467777137.2 for ; Fri, 13 Dec 2024 07:22:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1734103378; x=1734708178; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=6AgpKbxT2nBPmgnIO97t//PWXpsMCzAnK/IfOOvlBPg=; b=HAfFn5pXZW0OQGvy4bABYvmCkUZPXwkmfM43o2ejN3gQdolbYkQK6njrwMqgJSGzN9 zSjybUEdXnF2MI1dZg7lhs1XVfEVI114w8qD/xAqPUtYEELdPTMO86e57nmO/SeBgL0R krGB7gfCpJuHzwXewqPYlDBRLsIO6nm8xjjho= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1734103378; x=1734708178; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=6AgpKbxT2nBPmgnIO97t//PWXpsMCzAnK/IfOOvlBPg=; b=eyGSJR6V++PPV7l38bMh0l6TKZ4o3UTOesZQWajBX1KbyMKe+epohkGNS/hTFWpp6O G1/2OtOkEQkMsiDbHHvTWqTJXqRqWo41nzKavx3Tp8nYQkjFKW4KcOXl15IFD5s5+D0f 6czbG91pOVaQBjpaUH4Rd91ZaRD9X3YRfuhRSKcidkS4WHb6a6Ho4ZSxySHcM/w5EMoM XsduX4kT8ebZepaz1jehfS7awAvNGAO0vC/VQad6YU5iDfxQIkj4h65Pq9z6QSBstEK+ lF3nVFmKRvIAHWSufpX9lKsDAhedR9YLmUMWAfTH+2eMkBuKEwIk94l7WI0WuxFZlzVo TW8Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyXVol5MmeTsSZu6A9WC3sZspBvgqAPo5A60paOFAvTjrN6ha9A 1KyZjICC+RZEKnvSYFwnDi5335AMTtj23sChxsJLZ0oTD1WAiy/Us8g6ejnDrFpDFS5h2LEkmaP LTSCEljYuWt+xnK0mcHkKO3JZWAL7NghsPJy1 X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsAezImXdIA2f7YFBUbS+k8DrHiPJ4vJvyRSlSbyFOUEJfU+4PNcWlWrUPgedJ gLyFB+D7ls0r0Vd+pvHlUOuMYhAK9xStn6c8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IG8mNxbykYxYpxRaAKryi8BT/Wg7bnzhbfttjf4+rG2Fupx0WdbXODGDRnusxsB8YkcAQIXY/QBImZ51IdpS8I= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:a0e:b0:518:a261:adca with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-518ca460b50mr2972807e0c.8.1734103377868; Fri, 13 Dec 2024 07:22:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2024 10:22:22 -0500 Message-ID: To: Dan Cross Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d7986606292867ec" Message-ID-Hash: SEEFWPAJLWFGZRXP7CXRFJG4LURMG7PG X-Message-ID-Hash: SEEFWPAJLWFGZRXP7CXRFJG4LURMG7PG X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: TUHS X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: BSD talk program? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000d7986606292867ec Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As for the motivation -- it was simple. UCB is on a hill. I lived at the base of hill and I only wanted to walk up it once a day. Our office was a big pool of about 20 of us next to the CAD machine room on the second floor of Cory Hall. Somebody was usually in the office most nights, but not everyone. We all had modems and terminals at home, but only one phone line. We had 3 Vaxes in the CAD group, plus my Array Processor. So I wanted to be able to ask someone like Peter or TQ to reset the AP for me if I hosed it when I was working from home when I was debugging it. Plus the obvious social aspects -- "hey you want go get a Pizza/Beer etc..." But since we might be working on a different system, Kipps' hack was useless. =E1=90=A7 =E1=90=A7 =E1=90=A7 =E1=90=A7 On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 10:14=E2=80=AFAM Clem Cole wrote: > Yes -- I can give this history. > Kipp wrote an early version for 4.1BSD - but it is not the version in the > releases. It ran on Ernie and did not do as much. > I had used a different program on the PDP-10's and the ARPANET and I > started over when Joy added sockets for 4.1A. I also made the infamous us= e > of vax integers instead of network integers (and I knew better - but real= ly > did not think about until a few years later when I was at Masscomp and > compiled it for the 68000 -- ugh). That version still had a couple of bu= gs > in it (i.e. hung in the 4.1A networking code occasionally), but worked we= ll > enough on the CAD systems. I went away to a USENIX conference and while = I > was gone, my officemate Peter (Moore) took my code and fixed the problem= , > plus he put it into RCS. I gave that to Sam and that's the version that > went out in 4.1C and beyond. > > Clem > > > =E1=90=A7 > =E1=90=A7 > > On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 9:29=E2=80=AFAM Dan Cross wrot= e: > >> I'm curious if anyone has any history they can share about the BSD >> "talk" program. >> >> I was fond of this back when it was still (relatively) common, but >> given the way it's architected I definitely see why it fell out of use >> as the Internet grew. Still, does anybody know what the history behind >> it is? Initially, I thought it was written by Mike Karels, but that >> was just my speculation from SCCS spelunking, and looking at the >> sources from 4.2, I see RCS header strings that indicate it was >> written by "moore" (Peter Moore?). talk.c says, "Written by Kipp >> Hickman". >> >> It seems to have arrived pretty early on with respect to the >> introduction of TCP/IP in BSD: the README alludes to some things >> coming up in 4.1c. Clem, you seem to have had a hand in it, and are >> credited (along with Peter Moore) for making it work on 4.1a. >> >> So I guess the question is, what was the motivation? Was it just to >> have a more pleasing user-to-user communications experience, or was >> discussion across the network an explicit goal? There's a note in >> talk.c ("Modified to run between hosts by Peter Moore, 8/19/82") that >> suggests this wasn't the original intent. Who thought up the >> character-at-a-time display mode? >> >> Thanks for any insights. >> >> - Dan C. >> > --000000000000d7986606292867ec Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As f= or the motivation -- it was simple.=C2=A0 UCB is on a hill.=C2=A0 I lived a= t the base of hill and I only wanted to walk up it once a day.=C2=A0 =C2=A0= Our office was a big pool of about 20 of us next to the CAD machine room on= the second floor of Cory Hall.=C2=A0 Somebody was usually in the office mo= st nights, but not everyone.=C2=A0 =C2=A0We all had modems and terminals at= home, but only one phone line.=C2=A0 We had 3 Vaxes in the CAD group, plus= my Array Processor.=C2=A0 =C2=A0So I wanted to be able to ask someone like= Peter or TQ to reset the AP for me if I hosed it when I was working from h= ome when I was debugging it. Plus the=C2=A0obvious social aspects -- "= hey you want go get a Pizza/Beer etc..."=C2=A0 But since we might be w= orking on a different system, Kipps' hack was useless.
3D""= =E1=90=A7
3D""=E1=90=A7
3D""=E1=90=A7
=E1=90=A7

On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 10:14=E2=80=AFAM = Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.= com> wrote:
Yes -- I can give=C2=A0this history= .
Kipp wrote an=C2=A0early version for 4.1BSD - but it is not the v= ersion in the releases. It ran on Ernie and did not do as much.
I h= ad used a different program on the PDP-10's and the ARPANET and I start= ed over when Joy added sockets for 4.1A. I also made the infamous use of va= x integers instead of network integers=C2=A0(and I knew better - but really= did not think about until a few years later when I was at Masscomp and com= piled it for the 68000 -- ugh).=C2=A0 That version still had a couple of bu= gs in it (i.e. hung in the 4.1A networking code occasionally), but worked w= ell enough on the CAD systems.=C2=A0 I went away to a USENIX conference and= while I was gone, my officemate=C2=A0 Peter (Moore) took my code and fixed= the problem, plus he put it into=C2=A0 RCS.=C2=A0 I gave that to Sam and t= hat's the version that went out in 4.1C and beyond.

<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif= ">Clem


3D""=E1=90=A7
=
3D""==E1=90=A7

On Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 9:29=E2=80=AFAM Dan = Cross <crossd@gmai= l.com> wrote:
I'm curious if anyone has any history they can share about the BSD=
"talk" program.

I was fond of this back when it was still (relatively) common, but
given the way it's architected I definitely see why it fell out of use<= br> as the Internet grew. Still, does anybody know what the history behind
it is?=C2=A0 Initially, I thought it was written by Mike Karels, but that was just my speculation from SCCS spelunking, and looking at the
sources from 4.2, I see RCS header strings that indicate it was
written by "moore" (Peter Moore?).=C2=A0 talk.c says, "Writt= en by Kipp
Hickman".

It seems to have arrived pretty early on with respect to the
introduction of TCP/IP in BSD: the README alludes to some things
coming up in 4.1c. Clem, you seem to have had a hand in it, and are
credited (along with Peter Moore) for making it work on 4.1a.

So I guess the question is, what was the motivation? Was it just to
have a more pleasing user-to-user communications experience, or was
discussion across the network an explicit goal? There's a note in
talk.c ("Modified to run between hosts by Peter Moore, 8/19/82") = that
suggests this wasn't the original intent. Who thought up the
character-at-a-time display mode?

Thanks for any insights.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan C.
--000000000000d7986606292867ec--