From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B780D2028E for ; Mon, 8 Jul 2024 19:05:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE24F42A53; Tue, 9 Jul 2024 03:05:24 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-yw1-x112f.google.com (mail-yw1-x112f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112f]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFB2B42A44 for ; Tue, 9 Jul 2024 03:05:19 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-yw1-x112f.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-654ce021660so22829007b3.1 for ; Mon, 08 Jul 2024 10:05:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1720458319; x=1721063119; darn=tuhs.org; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Qgo+KO+WmSfzufe7sRJvnMoVSOWM6oZCWZesopcmOyI=; b=KYQs5XxD+NW0nNCd/wb5KjQNr7mupFbv5Ka0L/eTsmTyHyiFgNJVgA9FB4dRplYz8z IQopGBN8OoSiHlHsTCx9gJj+RyZoGsP/Sm5g5955ifNw3+Em14DPzjwJsjVO5b4kW7Mi iqXrqng+/SDWOFAuAV2x1ZB/cZ792HDT6OJBs= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1720458319; x=1721063119; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Qgo+KO+WmSfzufe7sRJvnMoVSOWM6oZCWZesopcmOyI=; b=ZH5dTMPE9bHnA2Sxnu5beVxtzmQ2GNPuqQ8pxpSHVBv+TGyms9QmbEv889/WkFLtoO +FeWl9NwXnMOBsh3hBkaT1wyTKwKBeyZ/8OZjUWNy610k4pWSY2Y2tye8HgROalFfrh3 PrHcglst2nARApg03FkEAikvI6Fd1ABzvoq70pCqKtUdP/qtStftDyMVtlVnTrdHOZq/ oRGDCiBKSLX07QwThcgaJ861r35wu80I4tGFPNHtIDRM1Wve6cDpUVMuN76IQEHzvUdA yDoQkAlMmWjjHCBBZhms3F6sZV9OZxQx9OhjnzfT21AqwOaVvF235QQ7YmDME3Wff91a 4ujQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyLEWpT/JWSgs3zWXZcgH34mtQ6xNJDrEhykVfsGFxOzAwrL33U B90TTrK7rMzBnwkRN4tDIyPNsTpwn6BeyLMPuzwXZWmQFyn/H9TaCFiv6FnRuQ4LiKjU8bNu5qK I+KzZ5Dz0fmsxvTz15M0hJ+UbhRs8Q/mGdJFRP4uzRpyOsSwsrCdG X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHUuhDTJgYUpNJikQJKEEF34YQz/isabWdpkqOFXGoWt4S97xzCwa0fZcdjyS69P8QNW0B1QiSZzsw4Fl7fnZQ= X-Received: by 2002:a0d:e616:0:b0:62d:a29:5384 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-658f10b0be2mr3792287b3.43.1720458318643; Mon, 08 Jul 2024 10:05:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202407080659.4686xEpc1504559@freefriends.org> <20240708132218.GF18818@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: <20240708132218.GF18818@mcvoy.com> From: Clem Cole Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2024 13:04:42 -0400 Message-ID: To: tuhs@tuhs.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ef1d97061cbf6a57" Message-ID-Hash: 52URPSRUGD6BE25NHMQW5FXSOF5MFDYW X-Message-ID-Hash: 52URPSRUGD6BE25NHMQW5FXSOF5MFDYW X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Anyone ever heard of teaching a case study of Initial Unix? List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000ef1d97061cbf6a57 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Al is right. Tom West led the Eagle project in Westboro, MA, which is documented in the Soul of the New Machine. The Eagle project became the 32-bit MV/8000 Eclipse [see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_General for more details]. I knew a few of the HW guys, as I went to CMU with one of them, and a couple of them came to do the Stellar CPU a few years later. But I did not know the SW folks there like I know the DEC folks, particularly since I never worked there. That said, WRT to their later UNIX box, I did have access to the same at Locus. As we did a lot of work for DG, adding features and helping them with POSIX/FIPS and SPEC1170 conformance =E2=80=94 IIRC, we added the FS Sw= itch for NFS support. It was probably the easiest UNIX kernel I have ever worked with, with the shortest learning curve. I may remember that the User API was based on SVR3/SVID, which means >>IIRC<<; it was based on Streams/TLI, but ISTR is a user mode sockets layer for porting (but I'm not sure of that -- it has been almost 30 years now). The kernel itself was a scratch rewrite with SMP in mind. The locking scheme was clean and simple and worked well to order 32/64 processors in our tests. Moreover, the kernel was well-documented. I do not know for sure, but I remember being told by some of the DG folks in NC that it was originally planned for the failed Fountainhead system, which was canceled after West and the MA-based folks delivered Eagle before the new system came from DG NC. Also, I believe that DG had in response to BLISS a low-level system language they called PL/N, but I don't know much about it/I never saw it - I'm told that it was a >>very<< subset PL/1 syntax, but like PL/360 - exposed a lot of hardware. ISTR that they developed some MV series compilers with it, but since Eagle was a 32-bit super set of Nova, AOS was ported. FWIW:. Since Multics had used PL/1 and supposedly Fountainhead was heavily influenced by Multics (as was Pr1me, by the way), it would not surprise me that PL/n has a PL/1 'flavor.' I'd love to know for sure >>but my WAG<< is that that core work for Fountainhead was reimplemented in C for their SMP 88000 box, and they added a UNIX API layer to it. =E1=90=A7 On Mon, Jul 8, 2024 at 9:22=E2=80=AFAM Larry McVoy wrote: > On Mon, Jul 08, 2024 at 12:59:14AM -0600, arnold@skeeve.com wrote: > > Brad Spencer wrote: > > > > > The later MV/xxxxx Supernova boxes could run Unix, I > > > believe... (at least I remember the university running Unix on a MV > > > series after I left). > > > > I think these were called "Eclipse", and the story of their > > development is told in the famous book "The Soul of a New Machine". > > For you youngsters out there, it's a great read. > > > > We had one at Georgia Tech, it ran a Unix emulation on top > > of AOS (or whatever it was called). Later on DG ported Unix to > > run on it native. > > I've heard, but never verified, that they did a really nice SMP Unix. > If anyone has seen the code I'd like to hear what you thought. The > way it was described to me, it sounded like an SMP SunOS. > -- > --- > Larry McVoy Retired to fishing > http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat > --000000000000ef1d97061cbf6a57 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Al is right. Tom West led the Eagle project in Westboro= , MA, which is documented in the Soul of the New Machine. The Eagle project= became the 32-bit MV/8000 Eclipse=C2=A0[see=C2=A0https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_General for more details].=C2=A0 =C2=A0I knew a few of the HW guys, as I went to = CMU with one of them, and a couple of them came to do the Stellar CPU a few= years later. But I did=C2=A0not know the SW folks there like I know the DE= C folks, particularly since I never worked there.

That= said, WRT to their later UNIX box, I did have access to the same at Locus.= =C2=A0 As we did a lot of work for DG, adding features and helping them wit= h POSIX/FIPS and SPEC1170 conformance=C2=A0=E2=80=94 IIRC, we added the FS = Switch for NFS support.=C2=A0 It was probably the easiest UNIX kernel I hav= e ever worked with, with the shortest learning curve. I may remember that t= he User API was based on SVR3/SVID, which means >>IIRC<<; it wa= s based on Streams/TLI, but ISTR is a user mode sockets layer for porting (= but I'm not sure of that -- it has been almost 30 years now).=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 The kernel itself was a scratch rewrite with SMP in mind. The loc= king scheme was clean and simple and worked well to order 32/64 processors = in our tests.=C2=A0 Moreover, the kernel was well-documented. I do not know= for sure,=C2=A0but I remember being told by some of the DG folks in NC tha= t it was originally planned for the failed Fountainhead system, which was c= anceled after West and the MA-based folks delivered Eagle before the new sy= stem came from DG NC.

Also, I believe that DG had in = response to BLISS a low-level system language they called PL/N, but I don&#= 39;t know much about it/I never saw it - I'm told that it was a >>= ;very<< subset PL/1 syntax, but like PL/360 - exposed a lot of hardwa= re.=C2=A0 ISTR that they developed some MV series compilers with it, but si= nce Eagle was a 32-bit super set of Nova, AOS was ported.=C2=A0 FWIW:. Sinc= e Multics had used PL/1 and supposedly Fountainhead was heavily influenced = by Multics (as was Pr1me, by the way), it would not surprise me that PL/n = has a PL/1 'flavor.'

I'd love to know = for sure >>but my WAG<< is that that core work for Fountainhead= was reimplemented in C for their SMP 88000 box, and they added a UNIX API = layer to it.


=
On Mon= , Jul 8, 2024 at 9:22=E2=80=AFAM Larry McVoy <lm@mcvoy.com> wrote:
On Mon, Jul 08, 2024 at 12:59:14AM -060= 0, arnold@skeeve.com= wrote:
> Brad Spencer <brad@anduin.eldar.org> wrote:
>
> > The later MV/xxxxx Supernova boxes could run Unix, I
> > believe... (at least I remember the university running Unix on a = MV
> > series after I left).
>
> I think these were called "Eclipse", and the story of their<= br> > development is told in the famous book "The Soul of a New Machine= ".
> For you youngsters out there, it's a great read.
>
> We had one at Georgia Tech, it ran a Unix emulation on top
> of AOS (or whatever it was called). Later on DG ported Unix to
> run on it native.

I've heard, but never verified, that they did a really nice SMP Unix. If anyone has seen the code I'd like to hear what you thought.=C2=A0 Th= e
way it was described to me, it sounded like an SMP SunOS.
--
---
Larry McVoy=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Retired to fishing=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat
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