From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.2 (2018-09-13) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.1 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.2 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [45.79.103.53]) by inbox.vuxu.org (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id f1bed3e5 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 15:29:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 75322A1F78; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 01:29:55 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2DACA1F06; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 01:29:14 +1000 (AEST) Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 5403CA1F06; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 01:29:07 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-wm1-f65.google.com (mail-wm1-f65.google.com [209.85.128.65]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D309A1EFF for ; Wed, 12 Dec 2018 01:29:01 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-wm1-f65.google.com with SMTP id y139so2621153wmc.5 for ; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 07:29:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5dN8e0cQD8Ojg6CnE+fBJVuBanSR/0POCPI/l+epk4o=; b=HC+D8lQg8wifc6YIMhFDvL2/L4JsKuYb8J4z6T0A6iuRTtLI2dVuQSrMF4wKW2Gia0 xB8ElmppGEhihErWUbS3OMpolYMgIc+eY+Srqnv7m9n8WjG43oQh3ARkA4xiFHjuSxSf xG2+rtiw3piyOmW+iCej88d8PJyK2B7eFaT10= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5dN8e0cQD8Ojg6CnE+fBJVuBanSR/0POCPI/l+epk4o=; b=W8MTj2tA6rSnHmWiSdwwVs3FTBj2uUKCFedqbJkwgu0K5hd6gPvAA8idylRrzFFy4Q gHGxqsyLO1YtTCpEsCEPruEAO1cEnKn5Pks6WXam5ZQty3rps/hCSAGq9upUv8tf/iD+ URIlylBO+RYadowMAZLEgmcRdesjWfCY/2OVAt5IqfG9R62wbdPbLChEYVhyMUz0IJQn qT4vUHXBwqKTFu6oJtszazQQBwfc2eN7HGmuizVMgXQ0HVca1zf5aZjn+9/ZFq6nkb9r 5Z69qCcBsrVGlB3YG6Nj2M+q4lmsN0FudpOzRmr6UiH4bu2us3UOziW/xVEEYwaWoOB8 1bFg== X-Gm-Message-State: AA+aEWZkJgPAAPM5HwyRKSpX2WKBtkt4BB7Lxhpe90ixFKQ7XGsHwHHY s8hnxYU+6G2amlv1CkGA77GdP0fL3f1FGRoUNgKWWQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AFSGD/XFhP9ywQSQIUdd6kl7zawsBQW+6qT5+RswvkwzCyiL8nO6jlYzjlwdfNQgPhaZOuKR9pLyJ6tbb3+W1YrI1QU= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:aa0f:: with SMTP id t15mr2668266wme.108.1544542139219; Tue, 11 Dec 2018 07:28:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <940B149F-923C-4D12-B5D7-698DEA2E4F1F@ccc.com> <4c0c11da-1223-ab19-72ec-4effeeb63127@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <7wk1kg34u0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> In-Reply-To: <7wk1kg34u0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> From: Clem Cole Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2018 10:28:32 -0500 Message-ID: To: Lars Brinkhoff Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008c996e057cc0bd3f" Subject: Re: [TUHS] 2.9bsd with networking on 18-bit possible? X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list , Grant Taylor Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --0000000000008c996e057cc0bd3f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Having had an extremely small part to play in 2.x story (some of my code is in there), I can offer a little of the history which hopefully you can glean some wisdom: re: NCP 1. The NCP code from Illinois, Rand *et al* - talked to the BBN-1822 interface. To my knowledge, no other networking interface was connecte= d to that code base. - 1822 interface board are not be found - what would you connect the other end too? - Which means that you need to write an NCP driver for some other networking HW you can find for the Unibus 2. The only PDP-11 @ UCB that might have ever run the NCP code was Ing70 and that was long before 2BSD was released (much less 2.X) - As Noel pointed out, there is no NCP code in the 2.9 BSD distribution re: BSD 2.x & BSD 3.0 - 4.1 1. BSD 2.0 was the Seventh Edition changes from UCB for the PDP-11 (primarily what was running on the Cory Hall System) 2. BSD 3.0 was the first Vax release for "Ernie" in Evans. For all intents this is 2.0 + changes to the Kernel to allow V7 to run on a 780 with paging turned on [I don't remember if csh is default shell for root= , it might be -> a user used to the way the 7th edition worked if presente= d with BSD 3.0 will find 'finger ROM/muscle memory' compatibility]. 3. BSD 4.1 was the widely released Vax distribution where Research Editions and BSD began to diverge. This was the system that convinced ARPA to make UNIX the supported OS for the next generation being VMS [wh= ich was being pushed by Stanford]. 4. Anything in the 2.X line post the original 2BSD tape was a group of mostly undergrads trying to move features from Ernie back to the Cory Ha= ll system. These changes were then duplicated around campus (Math and Sta= t Depts as an example) who had purchased PDP-11s. The first big change wa= s adding overlays for applications so larger address user programs like vi could keep running. But you tended to need at least sperate I/D (i.e. = the 17th address bit as I like to call it). 5. Once the kernel overlay code (which I think was about 2.7) was added, it was pretty amazing how much the PDP-11 team did getting many of the later Vax kernel features supported, such a FFS, MIT's Job Control for t= he csh, new signals and even networking on some systems with 'enough' main memory [i.e. the 22BIT ones]. re: IP and BSD 1. UCBVAX (running BSD 4.1) was spliced to the Internet via IP/TCP using the BBN 1.0 IP/TCP release for the Vax by Eric Cooper 2. BSD 4.1a thru 4.2 were different versions of Vax work from the new CSRG team with new features for the Arpa community; including the creati= on of sockets and resplicing the BBN stack back the new kernel. So the issue you will run into is that to get all of the features that were crammed into BSD 2.X from the Vax, you need 'enough' memory to keep the overlays loaded. I do not believe the Kernel can swap itself out. Besides the kernel (i-space) code itself, space for I/O buffers becomes a huge issue (it always was before you added networking on the Research systems). To compound the issue, the networking code has its own memory scheme call 'mbufs' which came from the original BBN code [Rob wrote it to be portable to multiple OS's not just UNIX - the BBN distribution works on things like the HP/3000 also]. Space for all the buffers is going to be your problem. The less kernel code you have resident, the more room you have for applications code and I/O buffers. This is why I suggested that if you really want telnet and ftp to the PDP-11, you might be better off moving the networking stack out of the kernel and put a serial line (or even a DR-11B with a simple transfer protocol) via an Arduino or the like. =E1=90=A7 --0000000000008c996e057cc0bd3f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Having had an extremely small part to play in 2.x story= (some of my code is in there), I can offer a little of the history which h= opefully you can glean some wisdom:

re: NCP
  1. The NCP code from Illinois, Rand et al= - talked to the BBN-1822 interface.=C2=A0 =C2=A0To my knowledge, no ot= her networking interface was connected to that code base.
      2. 1822 interface boa= rd are not be found
    • what would you connect the other end too?
    • Which means that you ne= ed to write an NCP driver for some other networking HW you can find for the= Unibus
  2. The only PDP-11=C2=A0@ UCB that might have ever run the NCP code wa= s Ing70 and that was long before 2BSD was released (much less 2.X)
    • As Noel p= ointed out, there is no NCP code in the 2.9 BSD distribution
re:=C2=A0BSD 2.x &a= mp; BSD 3.0 - 4.1
  1. BSD 2.0 was the Seventh Edition changes from U= CB for the PDP-11 (primarily what was running on the Cory Hall System)
  2. BSD 3.0 was the first Vax release for "Ernie&quo= t; in Evans.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For all intents this is 2.0=C2=A0+ changes = to the Kernel to allow V7 to run on a 780 with paging turned on [I don'= t remember if csh is default shell for root, it might be -> a user used = to the way the 7th edition worked if presented with BSD 3.0 will find '= finger ROM/muscle memory' compatibility].
  3. BSD 4.1 wa= s the widely released Vax distribution where Research Editions and BSD bega= n to diverge.=C2=A0 =C2=A0This was the system that convinced ARPA to make U= NIX the supported OS for the next generation being VMS [which was being pus= hed by Stanford].
  4. Anything in the 2.X line post the orig= inal 2BSD tape was a group of mostly undergrads trying to move features fro= m Ernie back to the Cory Hall system.=C2=A0 =C2=A0These changes were then d= uplicated around campus (Math and Stat Depts as an example) who had purchas= ed PDP-11s.=C2=A0 The first big change was adding overlays for applications= so larger address user programs like vi could keep running.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0But you tended to need at least sperate I/D (i.e. the 17th address bit a= s I like to call it).=C2=A0=C2=A0
  5. Once the kernel overla= y code (which I think was about 2.7) was added, it was pretty amazing how m= uch the PDP-11 team did getting many of the later Vax=C2=A0kernel=C2=A0feat= ures supported, such a FFS, MIT's Job Control for the csh, new signals = and even networking on some systems with 'enough' main memory [i.e.= the 22BIT ones].
=C2=A0re:=C2=A0IP and BSD
  1. UCBVAX (running BSD 4.1) was spli= ced to the Internet via IP/TCP using the BBN 1.0 IP/TCP release for the Vax= by Eric Cooper
  2. BSD 4.1a thru 4.2 were different versions of Vax work from the n= ew CSRG team with new features for the Arpa community; including the creati= on of sockets and resplicing the BBN stack back the new kernel.
    3. =
So the issue you will= run into is that to get all of the features that were crammed into BSD 2.X= from the Vax, you need 'enough' memory to keep the overlays loaded= .=C2=A0 I do not believe the Kernel can swap itself out.
<= font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">
Besides the kernel (i-space) code itself,= space for I/O buffers becomes a huge issue (it always was before you added= networking on the Research systems).=C2=A0 =C2=A0To compound the issue, th= e networking code has its own memory scheme call 'mbufs' which came= from the original BBN code [Rob wrote it to be portable to multiple OS'= ;s not just UNIX - the BBN distribution works on things like the HP/3000 al= so].=C2=A0 =C2=A0Space for all the buffers is going to be your problem.=C2= =A0 =C2=A0The less kernel code you have resident, the more room you have fo= r applications code and I/O buffers.

This is why I suggested that if you really want telnet and ft= p=C2=A0to the PDP-11, you might be better off moving the networking stack o= ut of the kernel and put a serial line (or even a DR-11B with a simple tran= sfer protocol) via an Arduino or the like.=C2=A0 =C2=A0
<= /div>
3D""=E1=90=A7
--0000000000008c996e057cc0bd3f--