From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.6 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:146::1]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AA8221460 for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2024 15:14:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAB7842634; Sat, 5 Oct 2024 23:14:50 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-ua1-x931.google.com (mail-ua1-x931.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::931]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21EBE42626 for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2024 23:14:39 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-ua1-x931.google.com with SMTP id a1e0cc1a2514c-84e8028c47eso957307241.0 for ; Sat, 05 Oct 2024 06:14:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1728134078; x=1728738878; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=jBgkP9S+D29Cp8TlAAm2fzEEPy9Xof8x/Q7Yk4LHNpM=; b=CyNiE3La1hKFtD90unco2JkQxO91swr+9ZDIW2Twl+Z+znH8D2BbM5zmhNOJm6kVwJ 0ydn2edh90sgSrgurXgVL4HgINH17IVyEjzYsY8dv3/nISE+F1ktQCU17G7plvDbQved FH3XUphlRafFVahtQ9h6N3HPbtGRg0vSWi8OM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1728134078; x=1728738878; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=jBgkP9S+D29Cp8TlAAm2fzEEPy9Xof8x/Q7Yk4LHNpM=; b=ZlVYO9RaHgep8buP1FMoYYifKloQZBOMp5Vuci2kSuhbwfkTRYaO47k9I5JA/fXMDl Epj6aeWi4wVwIXbc4EhXZGiz78pFgBgMUHH7OvQ1GSGMFS4Xlbb/WXSdChjimZAO+R0p VWuL4gB2pWuZwebZXqcdX91FvUhNQV/FbvSieCnOjuepmEyVIOLvR6uLW4fSbF09YDZS YJhNNbV6IxPKld0g3SGNHLXdPV9kf8G1RtY3s7u/n7MGcjgoD2ZRkh5HQ9VL1G+PVSVq uY0RO2XVQeJPruJtHoH2SBvT8BKLj1YNTc/VCevk3Gy8Fr9qiG4DBgXNyVoBMY/uQ0XN TxYw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXdpFV3n/WuSaqnNMJVKGBbs+P8oALEh+Z8Jas1LDFSpZs66gch2FuEvPuWdF4Uea7zru9H@tuhs.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyHv9ICPBPXZH3THicW6umbMtd1mgve+qwh668SK2NQKQPcodUr 3eDBY9C5+iJd7h4WHze5JHptLSh85EI9CNk4FdXNGJ653ts1SNr9ogpXeGFW5VVngVEXFGYofuZ eGke6+iuDLFOmgdjKpBb2bS/HF1cAx3RnDoJw X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEC02zqZGZfLswaJ0tp1uHEkrkp5Fr3eTYii2X1WPtjb8rc+1cYLGhZrVbJ4OfL9fgyQbjRs36edwcASyl0ofM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:30ac:b0:4f2:a974:29e5 with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-50c85448840mr5820410e0c.1.1728134077995; Sat, 05 Oct 2024 06:14:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20241005001433.7hukoga5bbbb3ygl@illithid> In-Reply-To: <20241005001433.7hukoga5bbbb3ygl@illithid> From: Clem Cole Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2024 09:14:27 -0400 Message-ID: To: "G. Branden Robinson" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d7f97e0623ba9192" Message-ID-Hash: XU3BOV5WM7QZEP23VVBLMCP7OWG3VTVN X-Message-ID-Hash: XU3BOV5WM7QZEP23VVBLMCP7OWG3VTVN X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "Jacobson, Doug W [E CPE]" , "tuhs@tuhs.org" , groff@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: Old troff files (1988-2007) List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000d7f97e0623ba9192 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Branden. Thank you. FWIW I have generally found heirloom to be good enough for rendering most old troff on modern systems such that I can reasonably read the text. But I suspect your detail is useful to know in some cases. As they say YMMR. That said I often use the groff tools kits since it=E2=80=99s what comes with things like brew on my Mac but it burps = on certain macros, particularly when I want to render old man pages or doc files from old Unix versions with things like .UX macro (which is a PITA). Thanks again, Clem Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 8:14=E2=80=AFPM G. Branden Robinson < g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Doug, > > At 2024-10-04T21:42:50+0000, Jacobson, Doug W [E CPE] via TUHS wrote: > > Folks: > > > > Long story short, I have a unpublished manuscript that a faculty > > member in my department wrote late 1980's early 2000's. He did the > > entire thing in troff, eqn, and pic. The faculty member is still > > alive. A publisher is interested in the manuscript. I have all of > > the source files on an old unix machine that still has troff, eqn and > > pic. It also has groff. This issue is that the pic commands are > > bracketed by .G1 and .G2 not .PS & .PE. > > As others noted, those are the characteristic preprocessor tokens used > by grap(1). > > groff(1) says: > A free implementation of the grap preprocessor, written by Ted > Faber =E2=9F=A8faber@lunabase.org=E2=9F=A9, can be found at the grap= website > =E2=9F=A8http://www.lunabase.org/~faber/Vault/software/grap/=E2=9F= =A9. groff > supports only this grap. > > Distributors often have a package of Faber's grap. I'm not aware of any > other in circulation. (Happy to be corrected here.) > > Please contact the groff list, groff at gnu dot org, if you have any > problems using it to format these documents and/or to note formatting > discrepancies between Unix troff and groff. There will likely be some. > > I've noted differences between DWB troff and Heirloom troff, so using > the latter does not guarantee identical rendering, and moreover > DWB/System V troff has some bugs/limitations that Heirloom and/or GNU > troffs have fixed, and some of these can affect formatting. > > Here's a list from groff's tbl(1) man page, for example. > > GNU tbl enhancements > In addition to extensions noted above, GNU tbl removes constraints > endured by users of AT&T tbl. > > =E2=80=A2 Region options can be specified in any lettercase. > > =E2=80=A2 There is no limit on the number of columns in a table, > regardless of their classification, nor any limit on the number > of text blocks. > > =E2=80=A2 All table rows are considered when deciding column widths= , not > just those occurring in the first 200 input lines of a region. > Similarly, table continuation (.T&) tokens are recognized > outside a region=E2=80=99s first 200 input lines. > > =E2=80=A2 Numeric and alphabetic entries may appear in the same col= umn. > > =E2=80=A2 Numeric and alphabetic entries may span horizontally. > > One can imagine how a 200+-row table could format differently between > DWB/System V and GNU tbl, without either being "wrong". > > Regards, > Branden > --000000000000d7f97e0623ba9192 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Branden. Thank you. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 FWIW I have generally f= ound heirloom to be good enough for rendering most old troff on modern syst= ems such that I can reasonably read the text.=C2=A0 But I suspect your deta= il is useful to know in some cases.=C2=A0 As they say YMMR.=C2=A0 That said= I often use the groff tools kits since it=E2=80=99s what comes with things= like brew on my Mac but it burps on certain macros, particularly when I wa= nt to render old man pages or doc files from old Unix versions =C2=A0with t= hings like .UX macro (which is a PITA).

Thanks again,
Clem
=
Sent from a handheld expect more typ= os than usual


On Fri, Oct 4, 2024 at 8:14=E2= =80=AFPM G. Branden Robinson <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Doug,

At 2024-10-04T21:42:50+0000, Jacobson, Doug W [E CPE] via TUHS wrote:
> Folks:
>
> Long story short, I have a unpublished manuscript that a faculty
> member in my department wrote late 1980's early 2000's.=C2=A0 = He did the
> entire thing in troff, eqn, and pic.=C2=A0 The faculty member is still=
> alive.=C2=A0 A publisher is interested in the manuscript.=C2=A0 I have= all of
> the source files on an old unix machine that still has troff, eqn and<= br> > pic.=C2=A0 It also has groff.=C2=A0 This issue is that the pic command= s are
> bracketed by .G1 and .G2 not .PS & .PE.

As others noted, those are the characteristic preprocessor tokens used
by grap(1).

groff(1) says:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A free implementation of the grap preprocessor, written= by Ted
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Faber =E2=9F=A8faber@lunabase.org=E2=9F=A9, can be found at the grap w= ebsite
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=9F=A8http://www.lunabase.= org/~faber/Vault/software/grap/=E2=9F=A9.=C2=A0 groff
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0supports only this grap.

Distributors often have a package of Faber's grap.=C2=A0 I'm not aw= are of any
other in circulation.=C2=A0 (Happy to be corrected here.)

Please contact the groff list, groff at gnu dot org, if you have any
problems using it to format these documents and/or to note formatting
discrepancies between Unix troff and groff.=C2=A0 There will likely be some= .

I've noted differences between DWB troff and Heirloom troff, so using the latter does not guarantee identical rendering, and moreover
DWB/System V troff has some bugs/limitations that Heirloom and/or GNU
troffs have fixed, and some of these can affect formatting.

Here's a list from groff's tbl(1) man page, for example.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0GNU tbl enhancements
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0In addition to extensions noted above, GNU tbl removes = constraints
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0endured by users of AT&T tbl.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2=C2=A0 Region options can be specified in any = lettercase.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2=C2=A0 There is no limit on the number of colu= mns in a table,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 regardless of their classification, nor any lim= it on the number
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 of text blocks.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2=C2=A0 All table rows are considered when deci= ding column widths, not
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 just those occurring in the first 200 input lin= es of a region.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Similarly, table continuation (.T&) tokens = are recognized
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 outside a region=E2=80=99s first 200 input line= s.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2=C2=A0 Numeric and alphabetic entries may appe= ar in the same column.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=E2=80=A2=C2=A0 Numeric and alphabetic entries may span= horizontally.

One can imagine how a 200+-row table could format differently between
DWB/System V and GNU tbl, without either being "wrong".

Regards,
Branden
--000000000000d7f97e0623ba9192--