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From: Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com>
To: Nevin Liber <nevin@eviloverlord.com>
Cc: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list <tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
Subject: Re: [TUHS] [tuhs] The Unix shell: a 50-year view
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2021 09:30:31 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAC20D2N2dmsX21fPO5_nHU7RTC+Kbsr0x_Hqvv2cr9C8Dpdeng@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAGg_6+MwmwBkbKHd2L55DV5=JSGd+Fz4Gi6iBaH0cS3i57uSUg@mail.gmail.com>

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On Tue, Jul 6, 2021 at 1:13 AM Nevin Liber <nevin@eviloverlord.com> wrote:

> head isn't needed because we can already do it with the command line
>> options for sed.
>>
> Sigh ... fine except for the fact that sed(1) did not exist when head(1)
was written. So you missed the point of my example.  FWIW: if you want to
pick nits, in this case, the solution with the former is redundant with the
latter.  IMO, That's ok as it follows in the basic tradition.  UNIX has a
number of ways to do similar things/solve the same problem, because it
offers tools, the system designers do not try to dictate a singular
solution.

As I fear by the reaction, many of you have missed the point of what I was
trying to say. I guess I did not do that clearly.  Let me try in a shorter
form.

The basic idea of the original Unix was that was small and simple and in
Dennis' words, 'ran on modest hardware.'    The designers of UNIX also did
not try to solve any one particular problem but offered a set of tools for
a >>programmer<< take upon her/himself to do so.

The issue is that the target >>user<< of UNIX had devolved from that of a
'programmer' but rather the elusive 'end user' and her/his
view/requirements tend to be "solve my problem now -- I don't care how -
just do it I don't want to think about it - make it go away."   So over
time, we hid a lot of the simplicity in features that were built on
features (often warts) that were built on other features (often other
warts).  Mashey had a great visual in his "small is beautiful" talk using a
'build slide' in PPT terms that demonstrated the problem.

I was commenting on the OPs post of the paper picking on UNIX, the UNIX
Shell, and where we are today *vs.* 50+ years ago.  My other point is the
authors need to get over themselves and recognize that* they are not making
a really new argument*.    Folks were not too happy with many of the BSD
'features' either, but now those same features (like head(1) or BSD sockets(3))
are considered SOP for nay new UNIX and you have to have them - even if
there are other if not 'better' ways of doing the same thing.
ᐧ

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  reply	other threads:[~2021-07-06 13:31 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 109+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-07-02 21:24 Nelson H. F. Beebe
2021-07-02 21:36 ` Larry McVoy
2021-07-02 21:56   ` Henry Bent
2021-07-02 23:12     ` Steve Nickolas
2021-07-02 23:49       ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2021-07-03 13:34         ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2021-07-03 13:56           ` Richard Salz
2021-07-03 12:04       ` Thomas Paulsen
2021-07-03 13:20         ` Dan Cross
2021-07-03 17:37           ` Theodore Ts'o
2021-07-03 17:57             ` Warner Losh
2021-07-03 18:10               ` Theodore Ts'o
2021-07-03 20:02                 ` Dan Cross
2021-07-04  0:47           ` Tomasz Rola
2021-07-04  4:36             ` Larry McVoy
2021-07-04 14:56               ` Dan Cross
2021-07-04 16:07               ` Theodore Ts'o
2021-07-04 20:10               ` David Barto
2021-07-05  0:25                 ` Larry McVoy
2021-07-05  1:23                 ` John Cowan
2021-07-04 12:48             ` Dan Cross
2021-07-05  7:14               ` Tomasz Rola
2021-07-05 16:26                 ` John Cowan
2021-07-06 23:17                   ` Tomasz Rola
2021-07-06 23:47                     ` Steve Nickolas
2021-07-06 23:49                       ` Warner Losh
2021-07-06 23:48                     ` John Cowan
2021-07-07  0:46                     ` Theodore Ts'o
2021-07-07  0:58                       ` George Michaelson
2021-07-07  2:48                         ` Larry McVoy
2021-07-07 18:32                       ` Tomasz Rola
2021-07-07 20:50                         ` Michael Kjörling
2021-07-08  6:46                           ` [TUHS] Overgrown ffox (was: The Unix shell: a 50-year view) Tomasz Rola
2021-07-08 13:59                             ` Derek Fawcus
2021-07-08 19:25                               ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2021-07-08 19:37                                 ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2021-07-08 20:40                                 ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2021-07-08 22:23                             ` Kevin Bowling
2021-07-08 21:47                           ` [TUHS] [tuhs] The Unix shell: a 50-year view Theodore Ts'o
2021-07-09 20:14                             ` Michael Kjörling
2021-07-07 13:54                     ` Tony Finch
2021-07-06 16:05                 ` Clem Cole
2021-07-09 22:19                   ` Tomasz Rola
2021-07-04 20:10           ` Tony Finch
2021-07-05  3:59             ` Theodore Ts'o
2021-07-05 15:08               ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2021-07-05  3:52           ` Bakul Shah
2021-07-04 18:17     ` John Dow via TUHS
2021-07-04 19:46       ` Clem Cole
2021-07-05  1:33         ` Noel Hunt
2021-07-05  2:38           ` Clem Cole
2021-07-05  2:51             ` Warner Losh
2021-07-05  3:03               ` Clem Cole
2021-07-05  3:01             ` Clem Cole
2021-07-05  5:22             ` Noel Hunt
2021-07-06  5:10           ` Nevin Liber
2021-07-06 13:30             ` Clem Cole [this message]
2021-07-06 16:23               ` Theodore Ts'o
2021-07-07  1:57                 ` Dan Cross
2021-07-07  2:52                   ` Larry McVoy
2021-07-07  5:19                     ` Andrew Warkentin
2021-07-07 18:28                   ` Jon Steinhart
2021-07-10 11:51                     ` [TUHS] " Ralph Corderoy
2021-07-10 13:54                       ` Henry Bent
2021-07-10 14:12                         ` Ralph Corderoy
2021-07-10 16:57                           ` [TUHS] Death by bug [formerly The Unix shell: a 50-year view] Jon Steinhart
2021-07-11  8:53                             ` [TUHS] Death by bug Ralph Corderoy
2021-07-11  9:04                               ` arnold
2021-07-12  1:42                                 ` Theodore Y. Ts'o
2021-07-12  2:57                                   ` Jon Steinhart
2021-07-12  6:39                                   ` arnold
2021-07-12  9:56                                   ` Ralph Corderoy
2021-07-11 16:10                               ` Jon Steinhart
2021-07-12 10:37                                 ` Ralph Corderoy
2021-07-06 13:40             ` [TUHS] [tuhs] The Unix shell: a 50-year view John Cowan
2021-07-06 14:12             ` Chet Ramey
2021-07-07  0:53               ` Nevin Liber
2021-07-07 13:08                 ` Chet Ramey
2021-07-07 15:15                   ` Richard Salz
2021-07-03  0:09   ` Andrew Warkentin
2021-07-03 15:49   ` Andy Kosela
2021-07-04 23:24     ` [TUHS] Is C obsolete? (was Re: [tuhs] The Unix shell: a 50-year view) Derek Fawcus
2021-07-04 23:50       ` Nemo Nusquam
2021-07-05  0:15         ` Dan Stromberg
2021-07-05  0:21       ` Larry McVoy
2021-07-05  2:36         ` John Cowan
2021-07-05  2:59           ` Richard Salz
2021-07-05  3:47           ` Larry McVoy
2021-07-05  4:02             ` Dan Stromberg
2021-07-05 13:45               ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2021-07-05 20:15                 ` Dan Stromberg
2021-07-05 21:05                   ` Larry McVoy
2021-07-05 21:29                   ` Clem Cole
2021-07-05 22:22                     ` Brantley Coile
2021-07-06  4:35                     ` Dan Stromberg
2021-07-06  4:44                       ` Warner Losh
2021-07-06  5:58                       ` Rico Pajarola
2021-07-06 13:05                       ` Clem Cole
2021-07-05 12:11         ` Thomas Paulsen
2021-07-05  4:08       ` Dan Stromberg
2021-07-05  4:23         ` George Michaelson
2021-07-05 14:43           ` Larry McVoy
2021-07-05 15:17             ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2021-07-05 15:36               ` Steffen Nurpmeso
2021-07-05 15:53       ` Mike Markowski
2021-07-05 16:39       ` Warner Losh
2021-07-05 19:02         ` Clem Cole
2021-07-02 22:27 ` [TUHS] [tuhs] The Unix shell: a 50-year view Chet Ramey
2021-07-02 23:09 ` Steve Nickolas

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