From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 13703 invoked from network); 13 Mar 2023 15:24:45 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (2600:3c01:e000:146::1) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 13 Mar 2023 15:24:45 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E53B24131E; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 01:24:40 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2c.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2c]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 920C4412A9 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 01:24:36 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2c.google.com with SMTP id y3so1375669vsl.11 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:24:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1678721075; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=3WRcLGZ684Dw/RaJv0el7h2pujJ5+hRRwUfC8aFl+WA=; b=e9d4cYdSCRTFMp/cPy7r9rC5VAdWeDoVQKD6WO/Z1Z98KoU2K5RE0nt4vgF2neVs2e NcVd+b0U/9O4VKwhnXYCxLsT/aHd0QwFIk1rLVgBYizwsHANTdibf4OpmG3xi6fxJ+ny qaWk8/wX2XwQXn8+9mFQGF62vYDh2A/Rv4YK0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678721075; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=3WRcLGZ684Dw/RaJv0el7h2pujJ5+hRRwUfC8aFl+WA=; b=W08yVleIBwl72Xn002pH/ALWYLBp5Tfn5W3DcbZv9bUbWKkjgd2SkzsbsiKMDJJ0De C1vctJe0r7525Y+TG6VYYDR4Yeb2mRx+Q9rzV6sjQx0nOoP/BhCjdDbHO83HU9/yyWId INdd+hO1UTt9SVTuOUQHgVhrxwlD/aMhpyW5DtO2GO8RJOlW3rcaHWR8WPQPCi+Fq1AA WuGWtke0W/OEUnnO74bLqa52Z1PDq+XCJ4slztP01bCSFTPzKk1vYqvEygPY/8wFnc7e q0H4JvbD9Oedj6bGkQmMPzL6wxSb6527/6syhfWSaLyWvE9HMsSb4tvdU0NvGbTGHi2G YzTA== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKUeDmnteYZQ2zslqTaYomQPPMjc2tI4zUwLIr4mQQUm11g+yusC I2eqpCdgU8wj8mGkSjdnAX0PksNu4SI6evgeWBXwH1mOou3jlel6TM4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set/RpBrcpaHZVXAnHLOauvaqRtw/VFVjwrq/HN8ZSrNdzaervwfJl+aCYfeLk/43sc7lY/upOfIog5794yWtfQI= X-Received: by 2002:a67:1005:0:b0:425:8e57:7bfd with SMTP id 5-20020a671005000000b004258e577bfdmr1954065vsq.3.1678721075160; Mon, 13 Mar 2023 08:24:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <78FE1F5F-7408-4BB0-8D2E-62AA00465774@planet.nl> In-Reply-To: <78FE1F5F-7408-4BB0-8D2E-62AA00465774@planet.nl> From: Clem Cole Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 11:24:24 -0400 Message-ID: To: Paul Ruizendaal Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005cba5a05f6c9b5b5" Message-ID-Hash: BEWGPSHZW55BK4SBG2OG754SCJOJYTHT X-Message-ID-Hash: BEWGPSHZW55BK4SBG2OG754SCJOJYTHT X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "tuhs@tuhs.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: virtual consoles / Alt-Fx List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000005cba5a05f6c9b5b5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The virtual consoles using the function keys predate Linux and 386BSD by a number of years. I used them only early x86 Unix ports to the IBM PC such as Xenix. FWIW I think Minix for the 8088 may have supported them - be worth checking. I have no memories off them on the 8 bit systems when concurrency was added but I did but do much them. I would not have been surprised that predates the x86 versions of different systems. I.e. I have vague memories of something using the function keys on the PDP-10s switching between screens but that was long ago. My bet would be to look at ITS, WAITES and Twenex for the origin story. On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 11:13 AM Paul Ruizendaal via TUHS wrote: > Thinking a bit more about terminal multiplexing was a major use case for > early X, I recalled using Linux virtual consoles in the late 90=E2=80=99s= for this > purpose. > > According to Wikipedia, virtual consoles originated with Xenix and before > that with concurrent CP/M. > > Perusing the documentation of those on Bitsavers, I can see that virtual > consoles have a prominent mention in the manual for concurrent CP/M (1983= ), > but not those of its forerunners MP/M II and MP/M (1979). I cannot find a > mention of virtual consoles in Xenix documentation as late as 1988. > > No such thing as a virtual (as distinct from pseudo) tty on 16-bit Unix o= r > early 32-bit, as far as I know; one could argue it does not make much sen= se > with physical terminals. Wikipedia says no such thing existed on SunOS > either. > > I think virtual consoles where present in Linux from a very early point. > > So, as far as I can tell virtual consoles were invented for concurrent > CP/M around 1983, made their way to Xenix in the late 80=E2=80=99s and be= came part > of Linux in the early 90=E2=80=99s. > > Have I missed other prior art? > > > -- Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual --0000000000005cba5a05f6c9b5b5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The virtual consoles using the function keys predate Linu= x and 386BSD by a number of years.=C2=A0 I used them only early x86 Unix po= rts to the IBM PC such as Xenix. =C2=A0

FWIW I think Minix for the 8088 may have supported them - b= e worth=C2=A0checking. =C2=A0

=C2=A0 I have no memories off them on the 8 bit systems when concurre= ncy was added but I did but do much them.

=
=C2=A0=C2=A0I would not have been surprised that predates= the x86 versions of different systems. I.e. I have vague memories of somet= hing using the function keys on the PDP-10s switching between screens but t= hat was long ago. =C2=A0=C2=A0

My bet would be to look at ITS, WAITES and Twenex for the origin sto= ry.=C2=A0

On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 11:13 AM Paul Ruizendaal via TUHS &= lt;tuhs@tuhs.org> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Thinking a bit more about terminal multiplexi= ng was a major use case for early X, I recalled using Linux virtual console= s in the late 90=E2=80=99s for this purpose.

According to Wikipedia, virtual consoles originated with Xenix and before t= hat with concurrent CP/M.

Perusing the documentation of those on Bitsavers, I can see that virtual co= nsoles have a prominent mention in the manual for concurrent CP/M (1983), b= ut not those of its forerunners MP/M II and MP/M (1979). I cannot find a me= ntion of virtual consoles in Xenix documentation as late as 1988.

No such thing as a virtual (as distinct from pseudo) tty on 16-bit Unix or = early 32-bit, as far as I know; one could argue it does not make much sense= with physical terminals. Wikipedia says no such thing existed on SunOS eit= her.

I think virtual consoles where present in Linux from a very early point.
So, as far as I can tell virtual consoles were invented for concurrent CP/M= around 1983, made their way to Xenix in the late 80=E2=80=99s and became p= art of Linux in the early 90=E2=80=99s.

Have I missed other prior art?


--
Sent from a handheld expect more typos t= han usual
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