From: Clem Cole <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: John Cowan <email@example.com> Cc: TUHS main list <firstname.lastname@example.org>, Douglas McIlroy <email@example.com> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Demise of TeX and groff (was: roff(7)) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 15:06:51 -0500 [thread overview] Message-ID: <CAC20D2N7PXkwvFe7iyUhznwrAyJf7k6oea3R+QiHL79Ty+0xDA@mail.gmail.com> (raw) In-Reply-To: <CAD2gp_TUJo3SU7e4NW6PDVxyey4dL-JvrbiaSbKMBB+fD9zOJA@mail.gmail.com> [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3935 bytes --] On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 2:20 PM John Cowan <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote: > I assume you mean s/groff/troff/. There must have been some public access > to the documentation like this that allowed James Clark to develop groff in > the 1987-91 time frame, though. It's still the *roff shipped with *BSD. > No, I mean troff... troff was written by Joseph Ossanna <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Ossanna> for early version of UNIX. It output was for the CAT4 typesetter [which Wang eventually was the owner, although I believe when BTL bought the typesetter, the C/A/T folk was an independent company from Wang]. The output is funky binary format. The docs describing troff can be found in some of the early distributions [for look in Warrens archives]. IIRC V6 had the nroff sources [ https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V6/usr/source/s7], and v7 has the nroff/troff source [ https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V7/usr/src/cmd/troff]. I've forgotten which earlier version had the binary in /bin (maybe v6 but possibly v5 too) and I'm fairly certain the original source leaked to the Universities before V7. I know we had the binary at CMU, before V7, but I don't remember when we got the source - but I suspect one our OYOC students brought it. I'll Let Noah speak for MIT and some one like Mary Ann speak for UCB before I got there. After Joe died and the BTL crew got a new APS5 typesetter, Brian set out to rewrite the code base to support any typesetting by using traditional compiler technology of converting the input to an ASCII representation that is walked by a seperate program that generates the device specific output. In fact it was this work (original done on V6) that forced Dennis (and I assume Steve Johnson) to update the C language a bit - which is what is described in K&R1. Brian's code and a version of DMR's updated C compiler was released independently as a package - hence the term 'typesetter C.' This compiler and the new document system took a seperate license. I had it at both CMU in the 70s and Tektronix -- I think Steve Glaser had it at Rice also - again ask someone else for other sites, including some of the early European ones. Later Brian's work was updated after V7 and included some new tools, and became known as Writer's Workbench, which eventually was entered in the 'toolchest.' At the time of the first release Brian published a paper / TR that describes the new version of troff (a.ka. ditroff), including some level of documentation for the intermediate language. That was published and would have been officially available to James. Clark certainly had access to both the papers as well as binaries. His work would eventually be called groff. I personally saw a version of it before it was taken into the Gnu project, in the early 1980s. I do not know if he had access to Brian's actual code under license when he reimplemented it in C++ creating a new implementation, as UCB did when they started to rewrite many of the utilities and main OS itself. The AT&T case basically said that once the implementations was released, AT&T could no longer call anything a trade secret, although they *do the own the IP and copyright* [and please not start a GPL/BSD license flame here -- the horse is so dead - please go back into the TUHS archives and read all about it if you are new here]. Larry is correct, that I do not believe that AT&T ever released that IP directly -- although the sources are certainly available at: The Heirloom Documentation Tools <https://n-t-roff.github.io/heirloom/doctools.html> I personally do not know the history. *But I believe* the concept is that when Sun bought out its license and was able to open source Solaris, the code base that goes back to Brian's original implementation became available at that point. Some one like Larry or Rob Gingell who lived some of that transition might be able to offer those details. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6158 bytes --]
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2022-01-11 20:07 UTC|newest] Thread overview: 102+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top 2021-12-31 15:47 [TUHS] roff(7) Douglas McIlroy 2021-12-31 23:07 ` George Michaelson 2021-12-31 23:40 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-01 0:56 ` [TUHS] TeX and groff (was: roff(7)) Greg 'groggy' Lehey 2022-01-01 3:15 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-10 19:00 ` Blake McBride 2022-01-10 20:21 ` Jon Forrest 2022-01-11 22:48 ` Blake McBride 2022-01-11 23:18 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-12 1:19 ` Dave Horsfall 2022-01-12 1:46 ` Blake McBride 2022-01-12 2:12 ` Bakul Shah 2022-01-12 15:49 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-12 16:22 ` Adam Thornton 2022-01-12 0:06 ` Jon Steinhart 2022-01-12 1:48 ` Blake McBride 2022-01-12 0:29 ` Nemo Nusquam 2022-01-12 1:53 ` Blake McBride [not found] ` <E3CC4B8A-4E88-4339-A4D3-4ED26BA80620@gmail.com> 2022-01-12 0:44 ` Jon Forrest 2022-01-12 2:00 ` Blake McBride 2022-01-12 2:10 ` David Arnold 2022-01-12 2:26 ` Adam Thornton 2022-01-12 19:54 ` John Cowan 2022-01-13 10:13 ` Thomas Paulsen 2022-01-13 20:00 ` John Cowan 2022-01-10 20:33 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-10 20:37 ` Richard Salz 2022-01-10 21:04 ` Dan Cross 2022-01-10 21:48 ` Nemo Nusquam 2022-01-11 2:25 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) 2022-01-11 2:47 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-22 2:34 ` [TUHS] troff environments, traps, and diversions (was: TeX and groff) Branden Robinson 2022-01-22 16:02 ` Douglas McIlroy 2022-01-23 19:45 ` Jon Steinhart 2022-01-23 22:26 ` Jon Steinhart 2022-01-11 1:52 ` [TUHS] Recognizing TeX (was: TeX and groff (was: roff(7))) Greg 'groggy' Lehey 2022-01-12 1:19 ` [TUHS] TeX and groff (was: roff(7)) Mary Ann Horton 2022-01-12 2:03 ` Blake McBride 2022-01-12 2:10 ` Bakul Shah 2022-01-12 3:44 ` Dan Cross 2022-01-12 16:48 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 2022-01-10 20:46 ` Steffen Nurpmeso 2022-01-11 1:59 ` [TUHS] Demise of " Greg 'groggy' Lehey 2022-01-11 2:13 ` Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) 2022-01-11 2:42 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-11 5:12 ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey 2022-01-11 5:59 ` John Labovitz 2022-01-11 8:57 ` arnold 2022-01-11 20:15 ` Jon Steinhart 2022-01-11 20:22 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-11 20:26 ` Jon Steinhart 2022-01-11 20:36 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-11 20:41 ` Jon Steinhart 2022-01-11 20:49 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-11 21:03 ` Jon Steinhart 2022-01-11 8:50 ` arnold 2022-01-11 14:00 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-12 23:22 ` [TUHS] troff or groff? (was: Demise of TeX and groff (was: roff(7))) Greg 'groggy' Lehey 2022-01-12 23:29 ` Greg 'groggy' Lehey 2022-01-12 23:32 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-11 15:47 ` [TUHS] Demise of TeX and groff (was: roff(7)) Clem Cole 2022-01-11 16:55 ` Richard Salz 2022-01-11 18:49 ` Clem Cole 2022-01-11 19:20 ` John Cowan 2022-01-11 20:06 ` Clem Cole [this message] 2022-01-11 23:57 ` Warner Losh 2022-01-12 0:03 ` Warner Losh 2022-01-12 8:54 ` arnold 2022-01-12 15:17 ` Clem Cole 2022-01-12 16:33 ` Dan Cross 2022-01-12 18:06 ` [TUHS] *roff history as told to GNU G. Branden Robinson 2022-01-12 18:34 ` Dan Halbert 2022-01-12 22:48 ` Clem Cole 2022-01-12 23:27 ` Charles H. Sauer 2022-01-13 0:35 ` Adam Thornton 2022-01-12 20:01 ` Dan Cross 2022-01-12 22:32 ` Clem Cole 2022-01-13 2:38 ` John Labovitz 2022-01-13 7:42 ` Lars Brinkhoff 2022-01-13 13:47 ` John Labovitz 2022-01-12 8:48 ` [TUHS] Demise of TeX and groff (was: roff(7)) arnold 2022-01-12 15:51 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-12 15:57 ` Clem Cole 2022-01-12 15:56 ` Clem Cole 2022-01-11 3:22 ` Adam Thornton 2022-01-12 0:32 ` Nemo Nusquam 2022-01-01 20:00 ` [TUHS] roff(7) [ and other related stuff ] Jon Steinhart 2022-01-02 0:12 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-02 1:04 ` John Cowan 2022-01-02 1:20 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-02 1:47 ` Steve Nickolas 2022-01-02 2:12 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-02 3:56 ` Jon Steinhart 2022-01-02 1:48 ` Jon Steinhart 2022-01-02 3:04 ` John Cowan 2022-01-02 3:30 ` Warner Losh 2022-01-01 1:11 ` [TUHS] roff(7) Phil Budne 2022-01-01 1:17 ` Chris Torek 2022-01-01 3:06 ` Larry McVoy 2022-01-01 3:34 ` George Michaelson 2022-01-05 21:15 ` Tony Finch 2022-01-11 22:02 [TUHS] Demise of TeX and groff (was: roff(7)) Douglas McIlroy
Reply instructions: You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email using any one of the following methods: * Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client, and reply-to-all from there: mbox Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style * Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to switches of git-send-email(1): git send-email \ --in-reply-to=CAC20D2N7PXkwvFe7iyUhznwrAyJf7k6oea3R+QiHL79Ty+0xDA@mail.gmail.com \ --email@example.com \ --firstname.lastname@example.org \ --email@example.com \ --firstname.lastname@example.org \ --subject='Re: [TUHS] Demise of TeX and groff (was: roff(7))' \ /path/to/YOUR_REPLY https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html * If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox; as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).