From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 16905 invoked from network); 11 Jan 2022 20:07:51 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 11 Jan 2022 20:07:51 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id AA6029CFDC; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 06:07:50 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4B7C9CFC8; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 06:07:20 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="Vp87ahSi"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id BFB949CFC8; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 06:07:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f172.google.com (mail-qt1-f172.google.com [209.85.160.172]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1184B9C78F for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2022 06:07:18 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f172.google.com with SMTP id bp39so506240qtb.6 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 12:07:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=L+KGeuUGQ1+N8pQJnB23g/L1HyKi3fqpGLjPl3vIzgE=; b=Vp87ahSiewx9u7T+KxqjpcKXTIpRU8bU3zCGs1bdkYzmT77qFsnMwXvHch9QupWUak p4qxBpkjsL0i4yPP2buj+uda7HwGmfgKZFCTk5pJ33E4/60wtNr+LeX67q45+hK+ypiF CFKMKYLkuBwf0QIp2ni93ue1AFlTfplVxTLLQ= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=L+KGeuUGQ1+N8pQJnB23g/L1HyKi3fqpGLjPl3vIzgE=; b=ZTGmpA/zCvdYAnpBgsq+O8XKLl5Y7q7EYkggTjhraqUUGX2H7rfWXSwfHUo9RjU5OC ACSUHGGxcsYmtMwWz0PvSQTWWcisQzi+/rPHelddvpUu1HYKv7xtyiPhW1LfVE8bVJos freZQGDBgK3vdBTyTRjuuMSV5tFctDsWGhiMnlNSekx7eQj5tVQbDJ4SRtQF2AZsoaPR RGrgUvTHNwH7S9+DydlBM1RdE/2V1cxC9SHZToijCZqUAV4/FAI9HMfRAzgMvvB+UaoF JyoYWvOqNTX74MTMxBXRy1r4nlC+LIjX/tPupnUrUJQIfg4v0t8ta/sSGMnr7+3o7qRf /pOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531UEV3mjMnnvTWLTCfqipxsWSKMbq1MYgZzvWm4nMO2yqUF+a8r t0r13SaR8X1fcWOk514CzZrbNq/IIkDv8rDOCx71fZ2wKEhTBrIl X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw+/QcUTlmu8Dt+ZXfe1B/qM+/S4dWGduFnaZosS2XfwSDNTxUBU+wuMeC96BrUL8rj44rWgMlch64rMUvxG3Y= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:7778:: with SMTP id h24mr5088980qtu.624.1641931636906; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 12:07:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20211231234039.GU31637@mcvoy.com> <20220101005605.GL75481@eureka.lemis.com> <20220101031511.GB8135@mcvoy.com> <20220111015901.GE25103@eureka.lemis.com> <4409b91cd794867d@orthanc.ca> <20220111024218.GE3441@mcvoy.com> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2022 15:06:51 -0500 Message-ID: To: John Cowan Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f6beb705d553ff0d" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Demise of TeX and groff (was: roff(7)) X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list , Douglas McIlroy Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000f6beb705d553ff0d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 2:20 PM John Cowan wrote: > I assume you mean s/groff/troff/. There must have been some public access > to the documentation like this that allowed James Clark to develop groff in > the 1987-91 time frame, though. It's still the *roff shipped with *BSD. > No, I mean troff... troff was written by Joseph Ossanna for early version of UNIX. It output was for the CAT4 typesetter [which Wang eventually was the owner, although I believe when BTL bought the typesetter, the C/A/T folk was an independent company from Wang]. The output is funky binary format. The docs describing troff can be found in some of the early distributions [for look in Warrens archives]. IIRC V6 had the nroff sources [ https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V6/usr/source/s7], and v7 has the nroff/troff source [ https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V7/usr/src/cmd/troff]. I've forgotten which earlier version had the binary in /bin (maybe v6 but possibly v5 too) and I'm fairly certain the original source leaked to the Universities before V7. I know we had the binary at CMU, before V7, but I don't remember when we got the source - but I suspect one our OYOC students brought it. I'll Let Noah speak for MIT and some one like Mary Ann speak for UCB before I got there. After Joe died and the BTL crew got a new APS5 typesetter, Brian set out to rewrite the code base to support any typesetting by using traditional compiler technology of converting the input to an ASCII representation that is walked by a seperate program that generates the device specific output. In fact it was this work (original done on V6) that forced Dennis (and I assume Steve Johnson) to update the C language a bit - which is what is described in K&R1. Brian's code and a version of DMR's updated C compiler was released independently as a package - hence the term 'typesetter C.' This compiler and the new document system took a seperate license. I had it at both CMU in the 70s and Tektronix -- I think Steve Glaser had it at Rice also - again ask someone else for other sites, including some of the early European ones. Later Brian's work was updated after V7 and included some new tools, and became known as Writer's Workbench, which eventually was entered in the 'toolchest.' At the time of the first release Brian published a paper / TR that describes the new version of troff (a.ka. ditroff), including some level of documentation for the intermediate language. That was published and would have been officially available to James. Clark certainly had access to both the papers as well as binaries. His work would eventually be called groff. I personally saw a version of it before it was taken into the Gnu project, in the early 1980s. I do not know if he had access to Brian's actual code under license when he reimplemented it in C++ creating a new implementation, as UCB did when they started to rewrite many of the utilities and main OS itself. The AT&T case basically said that once the implementations was released, AT&T could no longer call anything a trade secret, although they *do the own the IP and copyright* [and please not start a GPL/BSD license flame here -- the horse is so dead - please go back into the TUHS archives and read all about it if you are new here]. Larry is correct, that I do not believe that AT&T ever released that IP directly -- although the sources are certainly available at: The Heirloom Documentation Tools I personally do not know the history. *But I believe* the concept is that when Sun bought out its license and was able to open source Solaris, the code base that goes back to Brian's original implementation became available at that point. Some one like Larry or Rob Gingell who lived some of that transition might be able to offer those details. --000000000000f6beb705d553ff0d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Jan 11, 2022 at 2:20= PM John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org>= wrote:
I ass= ume you mean s/groff/troff/.=C2=A0 There must have been some public access = to the documentation like this that allowed James Clark to develop groff in= the 1987-91 time frame, though.=C2=A0 It's still the *roff shipped wit= h *BSD.
No, I mean troff... =C2=A0troff wa= s written by Joseph O= ssanna=C2=A0for early version of UNIX.=C2=A0 It output was for the CAT4= typesetter [which Wang eventually was the owner, although I believe when B= TL bought the typesetter, the C/A/T folk was an independent=C2=A0company fr= om Wang].

The output is funky binary=C2=A0format.=C2= =A0 The docs describing troff can be found in some of the early distributio= ns [for look in Warrens archives].=C2=A0 IIRC V6 had the nroff sources [h= ttps://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=3DV6/usr/source/s7], and v= 7 has the nroff/troff source [https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.p= l?file=3DV7/usr/src/cmd/troff].

I've forgotten= which earlier version had the binary in /bin (maybe v6 but possibly v5 too= ) and I'm fairly certain the original source leaked to the Universities= =C2=A0before V7.=C2=A0 I know we had the binary at CMU, before V7, but I do= n't remember when=C2=A0we got the source - but I suspect one our OYOC s= tudents brought it. =C2=A0 I'll Let=C2=A0Noah speak for=C2=A0MIT and so= me one like Mary Ann speak for UCB before I got there.

After Joe died and the BTL crew got a new APS5 typesetter, Brian set out t= o rewrite the code base to support any typesetting by using traditional com= piler technology of converting the input to an ASCII representation that is= walked by a seperate program that generates the device specific output.=C2= =A0 In fact it was this work (original done on V6) that forced Dennis (and = I assume Steve Johnson) to update the C language a bit - which is what is d= escribed in K&R1.=C2=A0 Brian's code and a version of DMR's upd= ated C compiler was released independently as a package=C2=A0- hence the te= rm 'typesetter C.' =C2=A0This compiler and the new document system = took a seperate license. =C2=A0 I had it at both CMU in the 70s and Tektron= ix -- I think Steve Glaser had it at Rice also - again ask someone else for= other sites, including some of the early European ones.

=
Later Brian's work was updated after V7 and included some new tools,= and became known as Writer's=C2=A0Workbench, which eventually was ente= red in the 'toolchest.' =C2=A0

At the time of = the first release Brian published a paper / TR that describes the new versi= on of troff (a.ka. ditroff),=C2=A0including some level of documentation for= the intermediate language.=C2=A0 That was published and would have been of= ficially available to James. =C2=A0

Clark certainly ha= d access to both the papers as well as binaries.=C2=A0 His work would=C2=A0= eventually be called groff. I personally saw a version of it before it was = taken into the Gnu project, in the early 1980s.=C2=A0 I do not know if he h= ad access to Brian's actual code under license when he reimplemented it= in C++ creating a new implementation, as UCB did when they started to rewr= ite many of the=C2=A0utilities and main OS itself.

The= AT&T case basically said that once the implementations was released, A= T&T could no longer call anything a trade secret, although they do t= he own the IP and copyright [and please not start a GPL/BSD license fla= me here -- the horse is so =C2=A0dead=C2=A0- please go back into the TUHS a= rchives and read all about it if you are new here].

La= rry is correct, that I do not believe that AT&T ever released that IP d= irectly -- although the sources are certainly available at:=C2=A0The Heirloom Documentat= ion Tools =C2=A0 I personally do not know the history. But I beli= eve the concept is that when Sun bought out its license and was abl= e to open source Solaris, the code base that goes back to Brian's origi= nal implementation became available at that point. Some one like Larry or R= ob Gingell who lived some of that transition might be able to offer those d= etails.
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