From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 28260 invoked from network); 17 Dec 2022 17:13:29 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (50.116.15.146) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 17 Dec 2022 17:13:29 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A12B42361; Sun, 18 Dec 2022 03:13:16 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vs1-f45.google.com (mail-vs1-f45.google.com [209.85.217.45]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F44142360 for ; Sun, 18 Dec 2022 03:13:09 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vs1-f45.google.com with SMTP id a66so5152949vsa.6 for ; Sat, 17 Dec 2022 09:13:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=WNvj91Ryj5rGZCjJhpZ89tMibKwqS5jJCK7QSEC/dqo=; b=IaShx2VDRip9K8heCpARgDo/WB9/vmzFdNADm0nBLDE1QgLHF5APZVDPmRurfvSvUW MrJpPU8/GTzyD7Gs6QIcxqtJjG2+jLWJlccV2H9KeNP1uMWtTjXtbA9eJ2ivRutd0XJ2 P6DvJFADlf0sHz55E97HFoofZ4kpvz7CyNYrM= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=WNvj91Ryj5rGZCjJhpZ89tMibKwqS5jJCK7QSEC/dqo=; b=zqns5dEztWe0chABIrECm/WcfZ3sNRAl5WIGzuvNClppr3XxOaqmpx6rqsXatamv2e 5ke6A+a7DFydqUg49nWpXYVELqUB/n/RDVRF0Lj+gQkP1EoJZl4szLZVDAhJdyruqi7H Lel/JRABeBL3TFoTp+IZz4SUH794czJI/mRKOr2l5Z0ASJoXEbX0/hBI0IOroVgK9Ek9 YOa4B3WkRZOfK0omrP0GQMP96Z92taPkv4rvlD+BMiRkbsEtbKbs4EHTGqPfFeN7srs2 XPnkpyOtmEBaaMY/VUJlmLHk86PSzZfbWQ/kD4tsG5xQYZukBPD2BPVrMaZLhcT8khBd 8Ahw== X-Gm-Message-State: ANoB5pmwrrjtTcC5zQipfZ9S1WESvuVLCY+hT+S1xGba/ZcvTxdysJF9 JAZyww3q6zpvQYiIJqviR63/T3dP+6vcwMS4yHHlfg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AA0mqf7dqzjv8U4K0MTil1SQi8KyaD5XEX9BhoaDJjDxgZB9OtskCJiRbYnm+cmfxaU0/ShXuTFjr8ioLN7fqgR4DLw= X-Received: by 2002:a67:de8b:0:b0:3b2:a92d:a1f0 with SMTP id r11-20020a67de8b000000b003b2a92da1f0mr11769429vsk.46.1671297127857; Sat, 17 Dec 2022 09:12:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2022 12:11:41 -0500 Message-ID: To: Douglas McIlroy Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009edb6905f0092f47" Message-ID-Hash: BRWLRK2AK4KNAHZ2RKWWWTU7FQ6WE7RQ X-Message-ID-Hash: BRWLRK2AK4KNAHZ2RKWWWTU7FQ6WE7RQ X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: TUHS main list X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: origin of null-terminated strings List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --0000000000009edb6905f0092f47 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Given the number of ex-MTS (Bill Joy and Ted Kowalski, to name two) and TSS hackers that were also later to be UNIX hackers after their original introduction to system programming as undergrads. I will keep this reply in TUHS, although it could be argued that it belongs in COFF. Note good sources for even more of the background of the history politics at both IBM & GE can be found in Haigh and Ceruzzi's book: "A New History of Modern Computing " - which I have previously mentioned as it is a beautiful read. On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 5:27 PM Douglas McIlroy < douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> wrote: > IBM revealed Gerrit Blaauw's skunk-works project, the 360/67, > but by then the die had been cast. Michigan bought one and built a > nice time-sharing system that was running well before Multics. > All true, but a few details are glossed over, and thus, this could be misinterpreted - so I'm going to add those as one of the people. TSS and the /67 was IBM's answer to Multics, as Doug mentions. Note that the /67 could run as a model /65, which as I understand it, most of the ones IBM sold did. At the time, IBM offered the /67 to Universities at a substantial discount (I believe even less than the /65). Thus, several schools bought them with Michigan, CMU, Cornell, and Princeton that I am aware of; but I suspect there were others. TSS was late, and the first releases could have been more stable. Cornell and Princeton chose to run their systems as /65 using the original IBM OS. CMU and Michigan both received copies of TSS with their systems. Michigan would do a substantial rewrite, which was different enough that became the new system MTS. CMU did a great deal of bug fixing, which went back to IBM, and they chose to run TSS. [I believe that CMU runs OS/360 by data and TSS at night until they felt they could trust it to not crash]. Nominally, TSS and MTS should share programs, and with some work, both could import source programs from OS/360 [My first paid programming job was helping to rewrite York/APL from OS/360 to run on TSS]. So the compilers and many tools for all three were common. MTS and TSS used the same file system structure, or it was close enough that tools were shared. I don't know if OS/360 could read TSS disk packs - I would have suspected, although the common media of the day was 1/2" mag tape. This leads to a UNIX legacy that ... Ted's fsck(8) - which purists know as a different name in the first version - was modeled after the disk scavenger program from TSS and MTS. icheck/ncheck et al. seem pretty primitive if you had used to see the other as a system programmer first. Also, a big reason why all the errors were originally in uppercase was the IBM program had done it. In many ways, neither Ted nor I knew any better at the time. Clem --0000000000009edb6905f0092f47 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Given the number of ex-MTS (Bill Joy a= nd Ted Kowalski, to name two) and TSS hackers that were also later to be UN= IX hackers after their original introduction to system programming as under= grads.=C2=A0 I will keep this reply in TUHS, although it could be argued th= at it belongs in COFF.

Note good sources for even more= of the background of the history politics at both IBM & GE can be foun= d in Haigh and Ceruzzi's book: "A New H= istory of Modern Computing" - which I have previously mentioned as= it is a beautiful read.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 = at 5:27 PM Douglas McIlroy <douglas.mcilroy@dartmouth.edu> wrote:
IBM reveal= ed Gerrit Blaauw's skunk-works project, the 360/67,
but by then the die had been cast. Michigan bought one and built a
nice time-sharing system that was running well before Multics.
All true, but a few details are glossed=C2=A0over, and = thus, this could be misinterpreted - so I'm going to add those as one o= f the people.

TSS and the /6= 7 was IBM's answer to Multics, as Doug mentions.=C2=A0 Note that the /67 could run a= s a model /65, which as I understand it, most of the ones IB= M sold did.=C2=A0

At the time, IBM = offered the /67 to Universities at a substantial=C2=A0discount (I believe e= ven less than the /65).=C2=A0 Thus, several schools bought them with Michig= an, CMU, Cornell, and Princeton that I am aware of; but I suspect there wer= e others.

TSS was late, and the first releases could h= ave been more stable.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Cornell and Princeton chose to run their= =C2=A0systems as /65 using the original IBM OS.=C2=A0 CMU and Michigan both= received copies of TSS with their systems.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Michigan would do a= substantial rewrite, which was different enough that became=C2=A0the new s= ystem MTS.=C2=A0 =C2=A0CMU did a great deal of bug fixing, which went back = to IBM, and they chose to run TSS.=C2=A0 [I believe that CMU runs=C2=A0OS/3= 60 by data and TSS at night until they felt they=C2=A0could trust it to not= crash].=C2=A0 Nominally, TSS and MTS should share programs, and with some = work, both could import source programs from OS/360 [My first paid programm= ing job was helping to rewrite York/APL from OS/360 to run on TSS].=C2=A0 S= o the compilers and many tools for all three were common.

MTS and TSS used the same file system structure, or it was close enou= gh that tools were shared.=C2=A0 I don't know if OS/360 could read TSS = disk packs - I would have suspected, although the common media of the day w= as 1/2" mag tape.

This leads to a UNIX legacy tha= t ...=C2=A0 Ted's fsck(8) - which purists know as a different name in t= he first version -=C2=A0 was modeled after the disk scavenger=C2=A0program = from TSS and MTS.=C2=A0 =C2=A0icheck/ncheck et al. seem pretty primitive if= you had used to see=C2=A0the other as a system programmer first.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0Also, a big reason why all the errors were originally in uppercase was t= he IBM program had done it.=C2=A0 In many ways, neither Ted nor I knew any = better at the time.

Clem


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