From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST,HTML_MESSAGE, MAILING_LIST_MULTI autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (minnie.tuhs.org [50.116.15.146]) by inbox.vuxu.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7A0831A96 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2024 17:36:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4526643CA2; Sun, 15 Dec 2024 02:36:20 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-vk1-xa29.google.com (mail-vk1-xa29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a29]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3ADE43C94 for ; Sun, 15 Dec 2024 02:36:15 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-vk1-xa29.google.com with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-51623968932so1422778e0c.1 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2024 08:36:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; t=1734194175; x=1734798975; darn=tuhs.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=80m1h43cY8CV4P/zp1kxpvJee+99AuTsKihNGrzFw1o=; b=mUVWSNXQjAhiXddjaPCCKVJkjaYFtuEIfpC+5WW5THATkctWAzaZPsTOwMdjtnB1ql CK4G+H1atOWkfk+YJFzOugKwYO8w+2gYy7Rm3k6UAZFqyq4DwBl2lABfFjjW23x+DOxp hX5F6yNJJVj40SGel2+y6N8tpuom1cBsCu/Xw= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1734194175; x=1734798975; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=80m1h43cY8CV4P/zp1kxpvJee+99AuTsKihNGrzFw1o=; b=nZKZSGYHiD4dPa77tvBgxzsxiogl46rEDn7+/QvWKz9of8uiDLPgdykWrNtIf1uqm/ k8ai6U0kyLaS9xKcCnQhRzaHeb3O9YFExv4KY56zkDoBtCSDk9HNjwIlo3E91mDLFebd Wv8bQNXu2LuhvIVdnyA97IOmmEdwZcf45baVVsLUeudM/CdHh1OLl0KyaZjwaoJIlgVG 12BTky+1mz4U6C8ifQrttIWSobjEaaVleae1Ht58AMZWjKEehlGm+vzKbpEkrSf3+9hJ P32oy6aau2kTBQa03B4eNSi3khOy4UV2ej2Qtat2V19Mm8b7ZXe9OY3KcZgd90jx0E7O DIHg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yw6idrvNBddRkozb19UX9ftTQxhzN2P+gbx4qiI7BNHXUkg3nC5 j30GhTi6B2VPpaMbu04oyVqJUwzw+nTfpWYg0fv2AARS71NMAN8rwK99oTLo4ilTYFXqaZ1N6+p 0pKY/Fgw4UEZ+2r2rTFX81b2veRwn2RoKCAJ/dnhLusJV7yPRUA== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctpHSCRFoPFanBqZ5Y0jiTuIDdk0Bgch/1I72fDqktoEmbsWsV4147wAtaeiGJ CmRgp86rjMT3IYMYGxFpeMfTd9k3rGlQmBCE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHUvQ5qHu2zqMKRVT//b6W4MF1AIRf5AvjSYdRfZ7df8k6RKnxP/S8OedaYxkJ5xImMt/wkNFQLBH4HQxGObZE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:4b01:b0:518:91b3:5e37 with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-518ca3b6a19mr7830371e0c.5.1734194174930; Sat, 14 Dec 2024 08:36:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2024 11:35:39 -0500 Message-ID: To: Dan Cross Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c4cd3606293d8bee" Message-ID-Hash: 65HT6CCFJA3L3WXFRPYDTAK2ZDCBBOQJ X-Message-ID-Hash: 65HT6CCFJA3L3WXFRPYDTAK2ZDCBBOQJ X-MailFrom: clemc@ccc.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-tuhs.tuhs.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.6b1 Precedence: list Subject: [TUHS] Re: BSD Talk History -- Credit Where Credit is Due List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000c4cd3606293d8bee Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't remember how Kipp did it. It would have been very V7 oriented and using the FS and signals I suspect. I remember is was not very sexy and one of things sockets allowed was completely rethink. That was the bull session I was referring too. As for the security issue, sure - we would not have considered that. Again we were grad students and basically friendly so actions like that would have been considered uncool. As I have pointed out elsewhere when a connection to the ARPAnet cost 250K/yr per host and a host cost $1-4M, the concepts of security and us all being in it together=E2=80=94a friendly community, as it were=E2=80=94had d= ifferent behaviors when a host is is $10-30 micro and wireless Interconnect can slimed at Starbucks for free. =E1=90=A7 On Sat, Dec 14, 2024 at 11:01=E2=80=AFAM Dan Cross wrote= : > On Sat, Dec 14, 2024 at 10:41=E2=80=AFAM Clem Cole wrote: > > I was thinking about this some more. > > > > IIRC: Peter and I sketched out the protocol for the sockets version on = a > whiteboard in our office one night after a beer and pizza run. Rick > Spicklemeir, Tom Quarles, and Jim Kleckner also participated in those bul= l > sessions. I started writing the program soon after that and had it worki= ng > to a point in a couple of hours. I don't remember the issues, but a coup= le > of them were when I left for the USENIX conference later that week. When= I > got back Peter had finished it and put it into RCS. The key is that th= e > coding was primarily Peter and myself, but Rick, TQ, and Jim all had > contributed in some manner, too, > > > > Although the famous bug of using a vax integer, you can squarely blame > me =E2=80=94 and as I said, having worked on networking for several years= before my > time at UCB, I should have known better. But did not even think about it= . > I failed Henry's ten programming commandments and concluded that the worl= d > was a Vax. Mei culpa. > > =E1=90=A7 > > Thanks, Clem, these are very interesting notes. > > The protocol had some interesting aspects to it; since the ctl address > was embedded in the message sent to the distant end, a trick of some > locals when I was younger was to put fake data in the request. The > effect would be that one would get a request to talk from user1@host1, > but actually be talking to user2@host2. This could either be very > funny or very uncool. > > I'm curious how the original worked, which I sort of gather was before > sockets? How did the two users rendezvous? > > - Dan C. > --000000000000c4cd3606293d8bee Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't remember how Kipp did it.=C2=A0 It would ha= ve been very V7 oriented and using the FS and signals I suspect.=C2=A0 I re= member is was not very sexy and one of things sockets allowed was completel= y rethink.=C2=A0 That was the bull session I was referring too. As for the = security issue, sure - we would not have considered that.=C2=A0 Again we we= re grad students and basically friendly so actions like that would have bee= n considered uncool.

As I have pointed out elsewhere= when a connection to the ARPAnet cost 250K/yr per host and a host cost $1= -4M, the concepts of security and us all being in it together=E2=80=94a fri= endly community, as it were=E2=80=94had different behaviors when a host is = is $10-30 micro and wireless Interconnect can slimed at Starbucks for free.=
=E1=90=A7

On Sat, Dec 14, 2024 a= t 11:01=E2=80=AFAM Dan Cross <crossd= @gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Dec 14, 2024 at 10:41=E2=80=AFAM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote: > I was thinking about this some more.
>
> IIRC: Peter and I sketched out the protocol for the sockets version on= a whiteboard in our office one night after a beer and pizza run. Rick Spic= klemeir, Tom Quarles, and Jim Kleckner also participated in those bull sess= ions.=C2=A0 I started writing the program soon after that and had it workin= g to a point in a couple of hours.=C2=A0 I don't remember the issues, b= ut a couple of them were when I left for the USENIX conference later that w= eek.=C2=A0 When I got back Peter had finished it and put it into RCS.=C2=A0= =C2=A0 The key is that the coding was primarily Peter and myself, but Rick= , TQ, and Jim all had contributed in some manner, too,
>
> Although the famous bug of using a vax integer, you can squarely blame= me =E2=80=94 and as I said, having worked on networking for several years = before my time at UCB, I should have known better.=C2=A0 But did not even t= hink about it.=C2=A0 I failed Henry's ten programming commandments and = concluded that the world was a Vax. Mei culpa.
> =E1=90=A7

Thanks, Clem, these are very interesting notes.

The protocol had some interesting aspects to it; since the ctl address
was embedded in the message sent to the distant end, a trick of some
locals when I was younger was to put fake data in the request. The
effect would be that one would get a request to talk from user1@host1,
but actually be talking to user2@host2. This could either be very
funny or very uncool.

I'm curious how the original worked, which I sort of gather was before<= br> sockets? How did the two users rendezvous?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 - Dan C.
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