[TUHS] Teletype

[TUHS] Teletype

[Brian Zick]

Howdy folks -

So I'm mostly a lurker here and love the history and the way things used to
be done. But being born in '91 I pretty much missed all of it, although I
did grow up with 80s machines in the house.

There is one thing that I would love to do, and may seem a curious thing to
most, but I think about it from time to time, and it's enticing. But I'm
not sure where one would get started.

Would it still be possible today for someone like me to go out, and find an
old teletype terminal (an old ASR or DECwriter or something), set up a
phone line and modem and get a roll of paper, and then actually use it to
connect to other computers?

I know it's not really practical today - but is it possible?

Brian Zick
zickzickzick.com

     .:/
  ,,///;,   ,;/
 o:::::::;;///
>::::::::;;\\\
  ''\\\\\'' ';\
     \



On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 8:13 AM, Andy Kosela <akosela at andykosela.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Friday, August 1, 2014, Dario Niedermann <dnied at tiscali.it> wrote:
>
>> Tim Newsham <tim.newsham at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > just for fun, you might want to run your
>> > ancient unix in simh using this terminal:
>> > https://github.com/Swordifish90/cool-old-term
>>
>> Cool! I've been waiting for ages for something like the Cathode terminal
>> emulator
>> to appear on Linux too. Cathode is Mac OS X only, unfortunately.
>> Homepage:   http://devio.us/~ndr/
>> Gopherhole: gopher://retro-net.org/1/dnied/
>>
>>
> I still prefer my old Digital VT terminal though.  Nothing will beat CRT
> screen when it comes to low resolution text-only mode.
>
> --Andy
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
>
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[TUHS] Teletype

[Brian Zick]

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On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 11:27 AM, Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon at orthanc.ca>
wrote:

>
> On Aug 15, 2014, at 11:04 AM, Brian Zick <brian at zickzickzick.com> wrote:
>
> > Would it still be possible today for someone like me to go out, and find
> an old teletype terminal (an old ASR or DECwriter or something), set up a
> phone line and modem and get a roll of paper, and then actually use it to
> connect to other computers?
> >
> > I know it's not really practical today - but is it possible?
>
> Certainly it's possible.  Although you would really only be able to do it
> with an ASCII terminal.  A DECwriter would work fine.  For a Teletype
> beast, you would need to make sure it used ASCII.  But lacking lower case,
> I think you would find it too painful to use, even though all the current
> versions of UNIX (and Linux) I'm aware of still seem to support the
> necessary case conversion in the tty drivers.
>

​Hmm. So for a TTY that old there would probably be no option for
lowercase. That does sound a little painful, especially if I wanted to edit
modern programs..​


> Your biggest obstacle might be finding a host machine that still has a
> modem attached that you could dial in to :-)
>

​So perhaps I could simplify it and attach to a machine sitting next to the
TTY - which then in theory could connect to the outside world via the usual
means. I wonder, has anyone tried something like this?
​

> And, of course, everyone KNOWS the entire universe runs in terminals that
> support ANSI escape sequences for colour and cursor positioning.  Who needs
> termcap?  (I'm looking at you, git. And clang.)  So you might find setting
> TERM=dumb isn't quite enough.
>
> Also, ed(1) is a wonderful editor on a hardcopy terminal.  Unless you run
> it on Linux, which KNOWS the whole world runs on 24 line terminal windows,
> and therefore ed needs to pause its output.


​I usually use vim, but before learning vim I learned ed and used it for
about a 2 month space for editing config files and things, so that should
hopefully be the easy part. :-)​


Brian Zick
zickzickzick.com

     .:/
  ,,///;,   ,;/
 o:::::::;;///
>::::::::;;\\\
  ''\\\\\'' ';\
     \
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[TUHS] Teletype

[Ed Skinner]

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A hybrid would be interesting, say a TTY with a Raspberry PI pulling 
data from Reuters.com and printing the text ala a "news wire" feed.
An RSS feed would be better than processing the whole page but Reuters 
doesn't seem to have one or I couldn't find it.
cnn.com/rss reveals lots of possibilities, however.
This could be fun (and smell like oil and ozone)!
Ed S.


On 8/15/2014 11:52 AM, Brian Zick wrote:
>
> On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 11:27 AM, Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon at orthanc.ca
> <mailto:lyndon at orthanc.ca>> wrote:
>
>
>     On Aug 15, 2014, at 11:04 AM, Brian Zick <brian at zickzickzick.com
>     <mailto:brian at zickzickzick.com>> wrote:
>
>      > Would it still be possible today for someone like me to go out,
>     and find an old teletype terminal (an old ASR or DECwriter or
>     something), set up a phone line and modem and get a roll of paper,
>     and then actually use it to connect to other computers?
>      >
>      > I know it's not really practical today - but is it possible?
>
>     Certainly it's possible.  Although you would really only be able to
>     do it with an ASCII terminal.  A DECwriter would work fine.  For a
>     Teletype beast, you would need to make sure it used ASCII.  But
>     lacking lower case, I think you would find it too painful to use,
>     even though all the current versions of UNIX (and Linux) I'm aware
>     of still seem to support the necessary case conversion in the tty
>     drivers.
>
>
> ​Hmm. So for a TTY that old there would probably be no option for
> lowercase. That does sound a little painful, especially if I wanted to
> edit modern programs..​
>
>     Your biggest obstacle might be finding a host machine that still has
>     a modem attached that you could dial in to :-)
>
>
> ​So perhaps I could simplify it and attach to a machine sitting next to
> the TTY - which then in theory could connect to the outside world via
> the usual means. I wonder, has anyone tried something like this?
> ​
>
>     And, of course, everyone KNOWS the entire universe runs in terminals
>     that support ANSI escape sequences for colour and cursor
>     positioning.  Who needs termcap?  (I'm looking at you, git. And
>     clang.)  So you might find setting TERM=dumb isn't quite enough.
>
>     Also, ed(1) is a wonderful editor on a hardcopy terminal.  Unless
>     you run it on Linux, which KNOWS the whole world runs on 24 line
>     terminal windows, and therefore ed needs to pause its output.
>
>
> ​I usually use vim, but before learning vim I learned ed and used it for
> about a 2 month space for editing config files and things, so that
> should hopefully be the easy part. :-)​
>
>
> Brian Zick
> zickzickzick.com <http://zickzickzick.com/>
>
>       .:/
>    ,,///;,   ,;/
>   o:::::::;;///
>>::::::::;;\\\
>    ''\\\\\'' ';\
>       \
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>


-- 
Ed Skinner, ed at flat5.net, http://www.flat5.net/

[TUHS] Teletype

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

On Aug 15, 2014, at 12:05 PM, Ed Skinner <ed at flat5.net> wrote:

> A hybrid would be interesting, say a TTY with a Raspberry PI pulling data fromReuters.com and printing the text ala a "news wire" feed.
> An RSS feed would be better than processing the whole page but Reuters doesn't seem to have one or I couldn't find it.
> cnn.com/rss reveals lots of possibilities, however.
> This could be fun (and smell like oil and ozone)!
> Ed S.

Could we make an auto-feed for the MHRS[1] weekend RTTY news transmissions?   They probably have the biggest collection of working and *in* *production* mills on the planet :-)

--lyndon (VE0WX / CFG7344)

[1] http://radiomarine.org

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[TUHS] Teletype

[Clem Cole]

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Brian,

The easiest thing is set up a BSD box of any flavor (I have a FreeBSD box
that used to have modems on it).   Then grab a USB to RS-232C cable if it
does not have a serial ports on it already.   Make sure there is a
getty/login configured for the port and your are set.   At that point you
can directly attach the terminal to the cable.    No need for the modem.

You will get the user effect, accept for the sounds of the modem connecting
and dealing with dialing itself.  If you wanted those, you could of course
put the terminal on a modem and connect the BSD system to a modem. Then
either use to two POTS lines if you want to spend money from the TPC.
Actually thinking about, you could also set up a POTS line emulator (which
if you google you can make one pretty easily).

Funny, just this AM, I put into the the electronics recycling box at work 4
telebit "Worldblazer" modems and a POTS line emulator (and a bunch of other
old junk).   I've been clean out my basement and I knew I would never use
those again.

Clem


On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 2:52 PM, Brian Zick <brian at zickzickzick.com> wrote:

>
> On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 11:27 AM, Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon at orthanc.ca>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Aug 15, 2014, at 11:04 AM, Brian Zick <brian at zickzickzick.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Would it still be possible today for someone like me to go out, and
>> find an old teletype terminal (an old ASR or DECwriter or something), set
>> up a phone line and modem and get a roll of paper, and then actually use it
>> to connect to other computers?
>> >
>> > I know it's not really practical today - but is it possible?
>>
>> Certainly it's possible.  Although you would really only be able to do it
>> with an ASCII terminal.  A DECwriter would work fine.  For a Teletype
>> beast, you would need to make sure it used ASCII.  But lacking lower case,
>> I think you would find it too painful to use, even though all the current
>> versions of UNIX (and Linux) I'm aware of still seem to support the
>> necessary case conversion in the tty drivers.
>>
>
> ​Hmm. So for a TTY that old there would probably be no option for
> lowercase. That does sound a little painful, especially if I wanted to edit
> modern programs..​
>
>
>> Your biggest obstacle might be finding a host machine that still has a
>> modem attached that you could dial in to :-)
>>
>
> ​So perhaps I could simplify it and attach to a machine sitting next to
> the TTY - which then in theory could connect to the outside world via the
> usual means. I wonder, has anyone tried something like this?
> ​
>
>> And, of course, everyone KNOWS the entire universe runs in terminals that
>> support ANSI escape sequences for colour and cursor positioning.  Who needs
>> termcap?  (I'm looking at you, git. And clang.)  So you might find setting
>> TERM=dumb isn't quite enough.
>>
>> Also, ed(1) is a wonderful editor on a hardcopy terminal.  Unless you run
>> it on Linux, which KNOWS the whole world runs on 24 line terminal windows,
>> and therefore ed needs to pause its output.
>
>
> ​I usually use vim, but before learning vim I learned ed and used it for
> about a 2 month space for editing config files and things, so that should
> hopefully be the easy part. :-)​
>
>
> Brian Zick
> zickzickzick.com
>
>      .:/
>   ,,///;,   ,;/
>  o:::::::;;///
> >::::::::;;\\\
>   ''\\\\\'' ';\
>      \
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
>
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[TUHS] Teletype

[Hoskins, Matthew E.]

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I have a decwriter la120 which similar to Clem Cole's suggestion is
connected to a Raspberry Pi via a usb2rs232 adapter.   (Yes, i have a wifi
la120.)

Its works pretty well, just add a getty in inittab on the /dev/usbTTY0 and
bingo.  (Yes you will miss the modem connect sounds)


On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 5:07 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> Brian,
>
> The easiest thing is set up a BSD box of any flavor (I have a FreeBSD box
> that used to have modems on it).   Then grab a USB to RS-232C cable if it
> does not have a serial ports on it already.   Make sure there is a
> getty/login configured for the port and your are set.   At that point you
> can directly attach the terminal to the cable.    No need for the modem.
>
> You will get the user effect, accept for the sounds of the modem
> connecting and dealing with dialing itself.  If you wanted those, you could
> of course put the terminal on a modem and connect the BSD system to a
> modem. Then either use to two POTS lines if you want to spend money from
> the TPC.   Actually thinking about, you could also set up a POTS line
> emulator (which if you google you can make one pretty easily).
>
> Funny, just this AM, I put into the the electronics recycling box at work
> 4 telebit "Worldblazer" modems and a POTS line emulator (and a bunch of
> other old junk).   I've been clean out my basement and I knew I would never
> use those again.
>
> Clem
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 2:52 PM, Brian Zick <brian at zickzickzick.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 11:27 AM, Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon at orthanc.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 15, 2014, at 11:04 AM, Brian Zick <brian at zickzickzick.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Would it still be possible today for someone like me to go out, and
>>> find an old teletype terminal (an old ASR or DECwriter or something), set
>>> up a phone line and modem and get a roll of paper, and then actually use it
>>> to connect to other computers?
>>> >
>>> > I know it's not really practical today - but is it possible?
>>>
>>> Certainly it's possible.  Although you would really only be able to do
>>> it with an ASCII terminal.  A DECwriter would work fine.  For a Teletype
>>> beast, you would need to make sure it used ASCII.  But lacking lower case,
>>> I think you would find it too painful to use, even though all the current
>>> versions of UNIX (and Linux) I'm aware of still seem to support the
>>> necessary case conversion in the tty drivers.
>>>
>>
>> ​Hmm. So for a TTY that old there would probably be no option for
>> lowercase. That does sound a little painful, especially if I wanted to edit
>> modern programs..​
>>
>>
>>> Your biggest obstacle might be finding a host machine that still has a
>>> modem attached that you could dial in to :-)
>>>
>>
>> ​So perhaps I could simplify it and attach to a machine sitting next to
>> the TTY - which then in theory could connect to the outside world via the
>> usual means. I wonder, has anyone tried something like this?
>> ​
>>
>>> And, of course, everyone KNOWS the entire universe runs in terminals
>>> that support ANSI escape sequences for colour and cursor positioning.  Who
>>> needs termcap?  (I'm looking at you, git. And clang.)  So you might find
>>> setting TERM=dumb isn't quite enough.
>>>
>>> Also, ed(1) is a wonderful editor on a hardcopy terminal.  Unless you
>>> run it on Linux, which KNOWS the whole world runs on 24 line terminal
>>> windows, and therefore ed needs to pause its output.
>>
>>
>> ​I usually use vim, but before learning vim I learned ed and used it for
>> about a 2 month space for editing config files and things, so that should
>> hopefully be the easy part. :-)​
>>
>>
>> Brian Zick
>> zickzickzick.com
>>
>>      .:/
>>   ,,///;,   ,;/
>>  o:::::::;;///
>> >::::::::;;\\\
>>   ''\\\\\'' ';\
>>      \
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TUHS mailing list
>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
>
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[TUHS] Teletype

[Brian Zick]

It turns out,I was really asking two related questions: can I use a
teletype today, and can I dial-in using a modem using the teletype. And the
answer to both looks like yes, but just using a teletype looks easier than
trying to dial-in like in former days.

On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 2:07 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> The easiest thing is set up a BSD box of any flavor (I have a FreeBSD box
> that used to have modems on it).   Then grab a USB to RS-232C cable if it
> does not have a serial ports on it already.   Make sure there is a
> getty/login configured for the port and your are set.   At that point you
> can directly attach the terminal to the cable.    No need for the modem.
>


I have an old G5 Mac Pro that should do great for this job. My dad is also
a NetBSD hacker going way back (actually he has a thing for running NetBSD
on old Amigas), so I can also get some help from him with the BSD bit if I
need it.

On eBay I was able to find an old Teletype Model 43, which appears to be an
ASCII terminal and is supposed to have an RS232 port. Nice. This model was
apparently also used by the distinguished Bill Gates back in the day. Also
it has an impressively large "return" key.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Teletype-Model-43-Ships-Worldwide/191271387173
http://comley.us/browse.php?&action=show&artefactID=1007

It'a $174 dollars with about $40 for shipping, so hopefully I'll be able to
swing that before someone else buys it. :-) Maybe I'll be able to get one
of my coworkers to go in on it with me. The idea is really enticing.

The fun of trying to do something in this now novel way is really great. I
was thinking I might try using it for my email. The news-ticker idea also
seems great, although honestly I get most of my news from HN or Digg (which
may or may not be the best place to get news from), so I would be more
likely to set those up. The other thing I was thinking: I have an old phone
hooked up through XMPP (which I use as my home phone) and I could use a TTY
as the caller ID, with a little clever programming.

I'm really excited that this not only seems possible but nearly in reach.

Brian Zick
zickzickzick.com

     .:/
  ,,///;,   ,;/
 o:::::::;;///
>::::::::;;\\\
  ''\\\\\'' ';\
     \
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[TUHS] Teletype

[Dario Niedermann]

Brian Zick <brian at zickzickzick.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 11:27 AM, Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon at orthanc.ca>
> wrote:
>
[...]
>> Also, ed(1) is a wonderful editor on a hardcopy terminal. Unless
>> you run it on Linux, which KNOWS the whole world runs on 24 line
>> terminal windows, and therefore ed needs to pause its output.

I'm not seeing the >> message from Lyndon Nerenberg on the ML, anyway I
just wanted to report that GNU Ed 1.6 doesn't pause output on this Linux
system, so there must be something in your local configuration that's
getting Ed to behave that way.

(Typed this with GNU Ed 1.6 on Slackware 14)


-- 
Dario Niedermann.              Also on the Internet at:

gopher://retro-net.org/1/dnied/ , http://devio.us/~ndr/

[TUHS] Teletype

[John Cowan]

Brian Zick scripsit:

> Would it still be possible today for someone like me to go out, and find an
> old teletype terminal (an old ASR or DECwriter or something), set up a
> phone line and modem and get a roll of paper, and then actually use it to
> connect to other computers?

The trick would be to find a computer that not only has dialable modems
(there are several such ISPs out there, like AOL, EarthLink, and NetZero),
but also allows callers access to a command line.  Normally you get
only PPP service, which just allows you to send and receive IP packets,
of no use to a TTY.

But there may be some hobbyist systems out there with dialup access.

-- 
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
Original line from The Warrior's Apprentice by Lois McMaster Bujold:
"Only on Barrayar would pulling a loaded needler start a stampede toward one."
English-to-Russian-to-English mangling thereof: "Only on Barrayar you risk to
lose support instead of finding it when you threat with the charged weapon."

[TUHS] Teletype

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

On Aug 15, 2014, at 12:08 PM, John Cowan <cowan at mercury.ccil.org> wrote:

> But there may be some hobbyist systems out there with dialup access.

world.std.com

The first, and (probably) the last.
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[TUHS] Teletype

[Ernesto Celis]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2014, John Cowan wrote:

> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 14:08:07
> From: John Cowan <cowan at mercury.ccil.org>
> To: Brian Zick <brian at zickzickzick.com>
> Cc: "tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org" <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Teletype
> 
> Brian Zick scripsit:
> 
> > Would it still be possible today for someone like me to go out, and find an
> > old teletype terminal (an old ASR or DECwriter or something), set up a
> > phone line and modem and get a roll of paper, and then actually use it to
> > connect to other computers?
> 
> The trick would be to find a computer that not only has dialable modems
> (there are several such ISPs out there, like AOL, EarthLink, and NetZero),
> but also allows callers access to a command line.  Normally you get
> only PPP service, which just allows you to send and receive IP packets,
> of no use to a TTY.
> 
> But there may be some hobbyist systems out there with dialup access.

I also lurk mostly on this ML, but this thread puled my attention.

I run a FreeBSD box as home server, also I own an USRobotics modem which
I've been thinking about connect to the home server and use it to dial
in to get acces to my shell, sort of fallback. I'm moving to a new home,
maybe this could be an interesting thing to do now that I have to mount
my setup in a new place.
> 
> 

-- 
Ernesto Celis de la Fuente
SDF Public Access UNIX System

C*Net 1-333-1106
+1 206-299-2120 ext.1106
http://ecelis.sdf.org
gopher://sdf.org/1/users/ecelis

[TUHS] Teletype

[John Foust]

At 01:04 PM 8/15/2014, Brian Zick wrote:
>Would it still be possible today for someone like me to go out, and find an old teletype terminal (an old ASR or DECwriter or something), set up a phone line and modem and get a roll of paper, and then actually use it to connect to other computers?

Yes, lots of people do it.  There is a "Greenkeys" mailing list 

http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/greenkeys

populated by mostly ham radio RTTY types, but it's also a great archive
of posts about hook-ups and repairs.  Yes, there are current-loop
adapters and RS-232 to USB adapters that can be used to connect
to contemporary machines.  There are also streaming audio web sites
that send RTTY-style signals if you'd like to emulate your old radio
over the Internet but still use your RTTY audio decoding hardware.

There's also a fellow http://aetherltd.com/ who connects even older teletype 
hardware to cell-phone texting.

The Teletype Model 33 was very popular among early computer users
because it was relatively low-priced compared to heavier-duty 
teletypes.  The old RTTY folks tend to look down their nose at it
because it wasn't as robust as other models.  

They routinely huff and puff at recent auction prices for the Model 33, 
though, as old computer collectors routinely pay $1,000 for them, while 
it's tough to give away the better-built (and heavier!) teletypes.

Last summer I picked up a Western Union-branded Teletype Model 28 KSR
(circa mid-1950s) in near-pristine condition for $50.  Almost twenty 
years ago I found a Model 33 in a university dumpster.

- John

[TUHS] Teletype

[Dave Horsfall]

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014, John Foust wrote:

> Last summer I picked up a Western Union-branded Teletype Model 28 KSR 
> (circa mid-1950s) in near-pristine condition for $50.  Almost twenty 
> years ago I found a Model 33 in a university dumpster.

For many years I used to collect old SCSI disks that otherwise would have 
met a sticky end*.  The most reliable ones were Fujitsu (they just 
soldiered on and on) with HP next (they made a noise like a jet engine, 
but I'm partially deaf anyway, due to attending too many *loud* rock 
concerts#).

To this day, I still keep an eye out on the verge,

[*]
They were chucked out for the sin of being deemed too small for the latest 
bloatware, but I never did find one small enough to act as a perfect RAID 
journal.  The littlest one was 2Gb, whilst I was searching for something 
around 20Mb.  Yes, I'm weird.

[#]
Bliss is when you are seated right in front of Suzi Quatro's Marshall 
stack.  Your ears will ring a bit afterwards...

-- Dave

[TUHS] Teletype

[Cory Smelosky]

On Mon, 15 Sep 2014, John Foust wrote:

> At 01:04 PM 8/15/2014, Brian Zick wrote:
>> Would it still be possible today for someone like me to go out, and find an old teletype terminal (an old ASR or DECwriter or something), set up a phone line and modem and get a roll of paper, and then actually use it to connect to other computers?
>
> Yes, lots of people do it.  There is a "Greenkeys" mailing list
>

I have plans to do it once I get the PSU for my LA120 sorted out.

[...]
> populated by mostly ham radio RTTY types, but it's also a great archive
> of posts about hook-ups and repairs.  Yes, there are current-loop
> adapters and RS-232 to USB adapters that can be used to connect
> to contemporary machines.  There are also streaming audio web sites
> that send RTTY-style signals if you'd like to emulate your old radio
> over the Internet but still use your RTTY audio decoding hardware.
>
[...]
>
> They routinely huff and puff at recent auction prices for the Model 33,
> though, as old computer collectors routinely pay $1,000 for them, while
> it's tough to give away the better-built (and heavier!) teletypes.
>

Really is annoying how much they go for. :(

> Last summer I picked up a Western Union-branded Teletype Model 28 KSR
> (circa mid-1950s) in near-pristine condition for $50.  Almost twenty
> years ago I found a Model 33 in a university dumpster.
>

I got a (broken, but repairable) LA120 for the total cost of $0 as the guy 
has like 10 and likes enabling my hobby. ;)

> - John
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>

-- 
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects

[TUHS] Teletype

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Brian Zick <brian at zickzickzick.com>

    > Would it still be possible today for someone like me to go out, and
    > find an old teletype terminal (an old ASR or DECwriter or something),
    > set up a phone line and modem and get a roll of paper, and then
    > actually use it to connect to other computers?

Well, although I used ASR33's for two years (attached to an 11/20 running
RSTS :-), it was a long time ago (I was 15/16 :-), and they aren't something
I _really_ know about, but ... Here are some issues you need to watch out for:


First, I think most Teletypes used what is called '20mA current loop' serial
line electrical interface standard (although some of the later ones could use
'EIA' - the now-usual, although fast disappearing, serial line electrical
interface standard). They are logically (i.e. at the framing level) the same,
but the voltages/etc are different.

The only Teletype I see listed (in a _very_ quick search, don't take this for
gospel) that used EIA is the Model 37.  So if you get a Teletype Model 33 or
35, and want to plug it into a computer, either the computer is going to have
to have an _old_ serial line interface (e.g. DL-11A/C, on a PDP-11), or you're
going to have to locate a 20mA/EIA converter (I've never seen such a thing,
but I expect they existed).

And if you want to plug it into a modem... all modems I ever heard of are EIA
(at least, the ones you could plug terminals into - e.g. in most PC modem
cards, the serial interface is entirely internal to the card).


Second, most of those Teletypes were 110 baud (mechanical hardware
limitation).

So that means that first, if you plug into a computer, your serial interface
has to be able to go that slow. Second, if you're dialing up, you need to find
a dial-up port that supports 110 baud. (I would be seriously amazed if any are
left...)


Of course, if you go with a DecWriter, some of these issues go away, but be
careful: some older DecWriters were 20mA too, and the speeds were almost as
slow on many (probably 300 baud, but I don't know much about DecWriters).
Sorry to be so much cold water, but...

As for finding one... I suggest eBay. There's a broken ASR33 there at the
moment - if you're _really_ serious, might be worth buying as a parts
source. But if you wait, I'm pretty sure one will eventually float by...

	Noel

[TUHS] Teletype

[Warner Losh]

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On Aug 15, 2014, at 3:47 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> Of course, if you go with a DecWriter, some of these issues go away, but be
> careful: some older DecWriters were 20mA too, and the speeds were almost as
> slow on many (probably 300 baud, but I don't know much about DecWriters).
> Sorry to be so much cold water, but...

DECwriters were quite slow. The ones I used (which I think were actually DECwriter II)
did 300, 150 and 110 baud (there was a push button to select. They did indeed
have EIA and 20mA versions, but the difference was a single board inside which
was easy to swap out for the other part. Even when it wasn’t easy, I worked
with a group of people that used one as their line printer with a fairly simple
transistor translator circuit (since that was a lot cheaper than the correct
board). But no matter how you slice it, 300 baud is slow. We likely wasted
way more time waiting for printouts than we saved for the “free” DECwriter
that we got…

Warner

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[TUHS] Teletype

[John Cowan]

Noel Chiappa scripsit:

> First, I think most Teletypes used what is called '20mA current loop' serial
> line electrical interface standard (although some of the later ones could use
> 'EIA' - the now-usual, although fast disappearing, serial line electrical
> interface standard). They are logically (i.e. at the framing level) the same,
> but the voltages/etc are different.

Current loop to EIA RS-232 (which is the relevant standard) converters
are readily available, saith Google.  There are also RS-232 to USB
converters for the other end.

> So that means that first, if you plug into a computer, your serial interface
> has to be able to go that slow. Second, if you're dialing up, you need to find
> a dial-up port that supports 110 baud. (I would be seriously amazed if any are
> left...)

I dialed up The World's local dialup line for my area, and heard a large
variety of tones including Bell 103-compatible FSK, which is 300 baud.
I suspect that anything that can do Bell 103 can fall back to Bell 101,
which was 110 baud.  I admit to never trying it.

Note that it's 110 baud because there are a start bit and two stop bits,
so it's really 10 cps.  300 baud has only one of each, hence 30 cps.

> Of course, if you go with a DecWriter, some of these issues go away, but be
> careful: some older DecWriters were 20mA too, and the speeds were almost as
> slow on many (probably 300 baud, but I don't know much about DecWriters).

The LA36, the only one I ever used personally, was 30 cps, ergo 300 baud.
(Note that it buffered and could print faster to catch up after a long
carriage return.) There was also an LA120 at 120cps.

-- 
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
        "Not to know The Smiths is not to know K.X.U."  --K.X.U.

[TUHS] Teletype

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

On Aug 15, 2014, at 3:01 PM, John Cowan <cowan at mercury.ccil.org> wrote:

> There was also an LA120 at 120cps.

Ah yes!  The APL terminal of choice at the U of Alberta for the APL hacks.  Late nights in the terminal rooms in GSB ... (and the mystery room on the 4th floor of CAB).

--lyndon

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[TUHS] Teletype

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

On Aug 15, 2014, at 6:56 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon at orthanc.ca> wrote:

> Ah yes!  The APL terminal of choice at the U of Alberta for the APL hacks.  Late nights in the terminal rooms in GSB ... (and the mystery room on the 4th floor of CAB).

Actually, the hardcopy terminal room on the 3rd floor of GSB was filled with dog slow DECwriters, now that I think about it.  Next door was a room full of CRT something or others, all wired to the Amdahl running MTS, so curses was just another curse. There was also one terminal room full of Courier 3270 clones (wonderful terminals, with indestructible keyboards) also wired to the MTS Amdahl/470.

Funny how the MTS line editor resembled ed(1) so much :-)

--lyndon
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[TUHS] Teletype

[Ronald Natalie]

U of M had the Teletype room which had teletypes (ASR 33's) with integral dataphones.     These got replaced with the LA36 decwriters most of which had APL character sets as well.   Upstairs was the Hazeltine room full of a half dozen Hazeltines that used ~ as the graphic escape (causing the HAZEL stty mode...leave poor tilde alone!) and one Tektronics storage scope monster.

My first C program was on one of JHU's teletypes complete with \( and \) for it being upper case only lacked the { } characters.

[TUHS] Teletype

[ckeck]

Rats :( :( :(

Did they have power supplies, and did they still work?

On Fri, 15 Aug 2014, Clem Cole wrote:

> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2014 17:07:28 -0400
> From: Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com>
> To: Brian Zick <brian at zickzickzick.com>
> Cc: "tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org" <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Teletype
[...]
>
> Funny, just this AM, I put into the the electronics recycling box at work 4
> telebit "Worldblazer" modems and a POTS line emulator (and a bunch of other
> old junk).   I've been clean out my basement and I knew I would never use
> those again.
>


---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Endymion MailMan.
http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/

[TUHS] Teletype

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: John Cowan <cowan at mercury.ccil.org>

    >> if you're dialing up, you need to find a dial-up port that supports
    >> 110 baud.

    > I dialed up The World's local dialup line for my area, and heard a
    > large variety of tones including Bell 103-compatible FSK, which is 300
    > baud. I suspect that anything that can do Bell 103 can fall back to
    > Bell 101, which was 110 baud.

There are two more things one needs to have for the port to support 110: i)
the serial interface needs to support 110 (even if the modem is integrated
with the serial hardware on one board, the serial hardware might not do 110),
and ii) the software needs to be willing to go 110.

I don't know anything about how contemporary dial-up ports work, so maybe
there's some side-channel from the modem to the interface which allows the
software to find out directly what speed the modem is using. However, 'back in
the day' with multi-speed ports, there was no such mechanism (the RS-232
interface spec didn't provide for speed indication), and one had to hit BREAK
and the serial line device driver would see that, and try the next speed in a
list. You can still see this in the big table of terminal types in getty.c,
e.g.:

  /* table '0'-1-2 300,150,110 */

which tried 300, 150, 110. So if the software isn't looking for 110...

	Noel

[TUHS] Teletype

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Ernesto Celis <ecelis at sdf.org>

    > I own an USRobotics modem which I've been thinking about connect to the
    > home server and use it to dial in to get acces to my shell

Just out of curiousity, what are you going to dial in _with_? :-)

	Noel

[TUHS] Teletype

[Noel Chiappa]

    > From: Brian Zick <brian at zickzickzick.com>

    > The fun of trying to do something in this now novel way is really
    > great. I was thinking I might try using it for my email. The
    > news-ticker idea also seems great

I suspect you'll find that the charm wears off pretty quickly, if you try and
use it for Real Stuff, day in, and day out. There's a reason this technology
is not used any more! :-)

    > I'm really excited that this not only seems possible but nearly in
    > reach.

I share you enthusiasm for the fun of computer archaeology. (Thanks to Milo,
I now have an 11/84 that I'm in the process of trying to get up.) Good luck!

	Noel