From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 18168 invoked from network); 1 Feb 2022 21:34:04 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 1 Feb 2022 21:34:04 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 41D529D6C6; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 07:34:03 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D60E69BDAE; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 07:33:49 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="IUNC7WqN"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 9AA379BDAE; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 07:33:47 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qt1-f177.google.com (mail-qt1-f177.google.com [209.85.160.177]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F12289B95E for ; Wed, 2 Feb 2022 07:33:46 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qt1-f177.google.com with SMTP id o3so15637943qtm.12 for ; Tue, 01 Feb 2022 13:33:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=vkzExQ1mF04CyRyszTDysSF/Kcim5O+ActJ3VKAyNxI=; b=IUNC7WqNjmDTGpCn2OAvmbILTL2m8yQ8vwe8xCMAcNIzpkOcpzzDVsPMNqF7J88dIr mnEhXWlTTANxTwhK6upnm/y0mddU5kIACCxMM/glBfvcFxSJcJNkzvy6dHtSd7QFRKv1 93+Nl63ILJgXU80MY7T/vwq35m6xrd9cJRT4k= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=vkzExQ1mF04CyRyszTDysSF/Kcim5O+ActJ3VKAyNxI=; b=O4yFb1FP5aufxzsuHP49XT9Dw7vVOBC7IwxUsoigOwJ9ZjnAk3GDPvT37xKqb/THWf acoF7QIBD77Sj3K/GSY/2J3rzA9oHZRzRsLK5xHF1uKEuZ1gaFH1ic2cwWQmoTXLL084 uckb8153hfAPvUsY5f66FAM4j4sr8iNvQrl4E2NZbY0yWRCweos+TOAPQpKjYtwaMVbg oatlCD8SThcU9WckDuu1JFHlKmJAYhO96ZvKEVqK60FArsE/qshaILMFpxmqhAWNR4Mh 4EyWO4afb4pE4Dlm7mCF7+2neZO0ym31OeNMJnzFvZlc+zQcKJESNPgLLVxU/ZQ+eg7N Y9nA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533hK67PvcQii3+SLMFtI3XIkyQRuh0yuLpukn3rwXIUEA9jjt0o E/JbU1DTLMYDrrVIPByiUoCWqHkxkAWjn0vcj9V+Wg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyiaJ7+PF5LxuCzHNMu7tMqtiPMyNRj7LlQ8I2k44H4XKbBnwg6s4uYUOghBgpcuwNLzBB4i8TuNnlVJqzwT/s= X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:1055:: with SMTP id f21mr20614558qte.588.1643751225882; Tue, 01 Feb 2022 13:33:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20220201181909.6224518C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2022 16:33:19 -0500 Message-ID: To: Dan Cross Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000eb077905d6fba7f4" Subject: Re: [TUHS] ratfor vibe X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list , Noel Chiappa Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --000000000000eb077905d6fba7f4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 4:22 PM Dan Cross wrote: > On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 2:40 PM Clem Cole wrote: > >> Dan - thanks. >> > > Sure thing. > > By the way: the thing I was thinking about earlier that was so biting > towards OOP was an earlier version of Harper's post, in which he writes, > "Object-oriented programming is eliminated entirely from the introductory > curriculum, because it is both anti-modular and anti-parallel by its very > nature, and hence unsuitable for a modern CS curriculum." > https://web.archive.org/web/20110321004746/https://existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/teaching-fp-to-freshmen/ > (How's _that_ for an academic glove-slap?) > Amen... My disagreement with them using scripting (python) as step one is the lack of teaching data typing early AND python's silly use space/tabs to set up structure instead of real {} or B/E blocks. Automatic data conversion has never been a good idea in my experience because like many things that happen magically, it almost never works as I expect. Funny we were discussing the roff family and that is why I like it over things like Word -- way too much hidden behind the screen for my taste. I'm a make it explicit kinda guy I guess. I hate surprises ... Also, it remains to be seen if teaching FP early helps - which they are clearly making play. Who am I to say, as one of the earliest languages I learned APL, so FP thinking was drilled into me in my youth. Clem --000000000000eb077905d6fba7f4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Tue, Feb 1, 2022 at 4:22 = PM Dan Cross <crossd@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
On Tu= e, Feb 1, 2022 at 2:40 PM Clem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:
Dan - thanks.

Sure thing.

By the way: the thing I was thinking= about earlier that was so biting towards OOP was an earlier version of Har= per's post, in which he writes, "Object-oriented programming is el= iminated entirely from the introductory curriculum, because it is both anti= -modular and anti-parallel by its very nature, and hence unsuitable for a m= odern CS curriculum." https://web.archive.org/web/20110321004746/https://= existentialtype.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/teaching-fp-to-freshmen/ (How&= #39;s _that_ for an academic glove-slap?)
= Amen...

My disagreement with them using scripting (pyt= hon) as step one is the lack of teaching data typing early AND python's= silly use space/tabs to set up structure instead=C2=A0of =C2=A0real {} or = B/E blocks.=C2=A0 Automatic data conversion has never been a good=C2=A0idea= in my experience because like many=C2=A0things that happen magically, it a= lmost never works as I=C2=A0expect.

Funny we were disc= ussing the roff=C2=A0family and that is why I like it over things like Word= -- way too much hidden=C2=A0behind the=C2=A0screen for my taste.=C2=A0 I&#= 39;m a make it explicit kinda guy I guess.=C2=A0 I hate surprises ...
=

Also, it remains to be seen if teaching FP early helps - wh= ich they are clearly making play.=C2=A0 Who am I to say, as one of the earl= iest languages I learned=C2=A0APL, so FP thinking=C2=A0was drilled into me = in my youth. =C2=A0=C2=A0

Clem
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