From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on inbox.vuxu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HTML_MESSAGE,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 Received: (qmail 27592 invoked from network); 1 Mar 2022 22:13:25 -0000 Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (45.79.103.53) by inbox.vuxu.org with ESMTPUTF8; 1 Mar 2022 22:13:25 -0000 Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id 9E65B9D005; Wed, 2 Mar 2022 08:13:24 +1000 (AEST) Received: from minnie.tuhs.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A2219CFD0; Wed, 2 Mar 2022 08:10:08 +1000 (AEST) Authentication-Results: minnie.tuhs.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key; unprotected) header.d=ccc.com header.i=@ccc.com header.b="Wfs12wlJ"; dkim-atps=neutral Received: by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix, from userid 112) id DF2DE9CFD0; Wed, 2 Mar 2022 08:10:03 +1000 (AEST) Received: from mail-qk1-f178.google.com (mail-qk1-f178.google.com [209.85.222.178]) by minnie.tuhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51E479CC02 for ; Wed, 2 Mar 2022 08:10:03 +1000 (AEST) Received: by mail-qk1-f178.google.com with SMTP id q4so14083895qki.11 for ; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 14:10:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=ccc.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8HcuciJRrX1VYMFogKtUH2o1Qr5Prh3/jPqRD4w9R0Y=; b=Wfs12wlJx41wBUW0+CTPHvDv63kBWsln+tbj3XVF30jthqyhS1Wf/zHLxgWqeD4zrt DHRgMK2KQxF+JXDGLaJnO7R3fkc7nrZGWPCZEV3Aw1lmphT3u98wXyI+xGXOvktFeZJu beuNrrqHBy14keex0QUdbZzRZL8JjuAdj+53M= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8HcuciJRrX1VYMFogKtUH2o1Qr5Prh3/jPqRD4w9R0Y=; b=PS/jiCSreU+3QJxGpl7TkskACUkMgxx8OfL/0ljQ9h7FKQVy3EMrXULDk9iFzG1CiX J9Xxsl7mgIwCBrB825jxZ6Fa7P+ok3q4W/VeJqcRCRrfoXA4+7Td8ABdpJx25fbtQqcO gnTyeO4Ft2ES9GtV0nPF11DknSBgr877yBj+I+iDV+qAjll5ij0r3mp6tr1hiwNmXyTq CHHlEbMUYK22hCmskxus7Gp2BoMohSyGFmWDBXLBNZYnLdEoQEtBVi5E5QLjlY2CCjey RIHRo20FwbHG1rKj9aJuhzAm1BOjLb9L5AhcKMdfO2Rp1u9jw3SwFBlFE9HhjNP4Ls2P hitQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Dk+fzMAubLN5wSD4IfXA3L9lQICIKwB/MPYUhhUyWgZiohL+3 ti++qP0URSTGR+xy5vt/UPuyWdq4o0l2FjgHQpIejtENDG0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwxdcxDr7iapZLUS0AHbplB3RcnyOzIFB745/jDm6GlyBfyN6PmhSKmQ2qrMDoUygM/JhSfG1XhRfIkkcBuuwc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:11b9:b0:663:1776:cfbb with SMTP id c25-20020a05620a11b900b006631776cfbbmr4918230qkk.730.1646172602158; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 14:10:02 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Clem Cole Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2022 17:09:51 -0500 Message-ID: To: Richard Salz Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000030e4ca05d92f6d9d" Subject: Re: [TUHS] Pipes and PRISM X-BeenThere: tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: The Unix Heritage Society mailing list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: TUHS main list Errors-To: tuhs-bounces@minnie.tuhs.org Sender: "TUHS" --00000000000030e4ca05d92f6d9d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Btw look at Mach if you want to understand nt. The Mach and Nt tasks are very lightweight and primitive so you can build much more complex processes from them On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 4:49 PM Clem Cole wrote: > Very few. They had nt sources. Because of the Unisys law suite against > Msft and DEC. Fwiw Dave had defined a hard link link in the file system > on disk format but Win32 lacked away to create them. So they had to add > that nt call to support it. They also fixed a few bugs but that purely > the POSIX layer drive the uk differently and until they pushed it, they had > been exposed > > Dave has started to write the posix.exe sub system but not completed it so > they did that of course. But over all nt itself was pretty much as Dave > had designed it > > Remember nt (aka mica) was not designed for windows. Dave never cared > what the user interface was. He had fought that war at DEC and mica was > his answer as Paul mentioned > > Eventually Msft bought softway and created the SFU product. When Linux > took off they cancelled it and. It the deal with canonical who helped them > with WSL. > > Btw Steve Walli gave a great USENIX talk on the whole softway/interix > experience at some point. He had some choice comments which decorum will > not allow me to repeat here. > > On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 4:32 PM Richard Salz wrote: > >> The VMS process model is different from Unix; like TOPS-20, it was more a >> shared address space. I don't remember details, but I do recall that a >> "logout" call in a DCL script logged you out of the system. >> >> Did Softway Systems make kernel changes? I know MSFT's original Posix >> plan was to do it all in user-space. WSL is a Ubuntu port, so if Softway >> had kernel changes, I could see how that made things simpler. >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 12:05 PM Paul Winalski >> wrote: >> >>> Last week there was a bit of discussion about the different shells >>> that would eventually lead to srb writing the shell that took his name >>> and the command syntax and semantics that most modern shells use >>> today. Some of you may remember, VMS had a command interpreter >>> called DCL (Digital Command language), part of an attempt to make >>> command syntax uniform across DEC's different operating systems >>> (TOPS-20 also used DCL). As DEC started to recognize the value of the >>> Unix marketplace, a project was born in DEC's Commercial Languages and >>> Tools group to bring the Unix Bourne shell to VMS and to sell it as a >>> product they called DEC Shell. >>> >>> I had been part of that effort and one of the issues we had to solve >>> is providing formal UNIX pipe semantics. They of course needed to >>> somehow implement UNIX style process pipelines. VMS from the >>> beginning has had an interprocess communications pseudo-device called >>> the mailbox that can be written to and read from via the usual I/O >>> mechanism (the QIO system service). A large problem with them is that >>> it is not possible to detect the "broken pipe" condition with a >>> mailbox and that feature deficiency made them unsuitable for use with >>> DEC Shell. So the team had me write a new device driver, based >>> closely on the mailbox driver, but that could detect broken pipes >>> lines UNIX-style. >>> >>> Shortly after I finished the VMS pipe driver, the team at DECwest had >>> started work on the MICA project, which was Dave Culter's proposed OS >>> unification. Dave's team had developed a machine architecture called >>> PRISM (Proposed RISC Machine) to be the VAX follow-on. For forward >>> compatibility purposes, PRISM would have to support both Ultrix and >>> VMS. Dave and team had already written a microkernel-based, >>> lightweight OS for VAX called VAXeln that was intended for real-time >>> applications. His new idea was to have a MACH-like microkernel OS >>> which he called MICA and then to put three user mode personality >>> modules on top of that: >>> >>> P.VMS, implementing the VMS system services and ABI >>> P.Ultrix, implementing the Unix system calls and ABI >>> P.TBD, a new OS API and ABI intended to supersede VMS >>> >>> So I wrote the attached "why pipes" memo to explain to Cutler's team >>> why it was important to implement pipes natively in P.TBD if they >>> wanted that OS to be a viable follow-on to VMS and Ultrix. >>> >>> In the end, Dick Sites's 64-bit RISC machine architecture proposal, >>> which was called Alpha, won out over PRISM. Cutler and a bunch of his >>> DECwest engineering team went off to Microsoft. Dave's idea of a >>> microkernel-based OS with multiple personalities of course saw the >>> light of day originally as NT OS/2, but because of the idea of >>> multiple personalities, when Microsoft and IBM divorced Dave was able >>> to quickly pivot to the now infamous Win32 personality, as what would >>> be called Windows NT. It was also easy for Softway Systems to later >>> complete the NT POSIX layer for their Interix product, which now a few >>> generations later is called WSL by Microsoft. >>> >>> -Paul W. >>> >> -- > Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual > -- Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual --00000000000030e4ca05d92f6d9d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Btw look at Mach if you want to understand nt.=C2=A0 The = Mach and Nt tasks are very lightweight and primitive so you can build much = more complex processes from them=C2=A0

On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 4:49 PM C= lem Cole <clemc@ccc.com> wrote:<= br>
Very few.=C2=A0 They had nt sou= rces. Because of the Unisys law suite against Msft and DEC. =C2=A0 Fwiw =C2= =A0Dave had defined a hard link link in the file system on disk format but = Win32 lacked away to create them.=C2=A0 So they had to add that nt call to = support it. =C2=A0 They also fixed a few bugs but that purely the POSIX lay= er drive the uk differently and until they pushed it, they had been exposed=

Dave has started to wri= te the posix.exe sub system but not completed it so they did that of course= .=C2=A0 But over all nt itself was pretty much as Dave had designed it

Remember nt (aka mica) was n= ot designed for windows.=C2=A0 Dave never cared what the user interface was= .=C2=A0 He had fought that war at DEC and mica was his answer as Paul menti= oned=C2=A0

Eventually Ms= ft bought softway and created the SFU product.=C2=A0 When Linux took off th= ey cancelled it and. It the deal with canonical who helped them with WSL.= =C2=A0

Btw Steve Walli g= ave a great USENIX talk on the whole softway/interix experience at some poi= nt.=C2=A0 He had some choice comments which decorum will not allow me to re= peat here. =C2=A0

On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 4:32 PM Richard Salz <rich.salz@gmail.com= > wrote:
The VMS process= model is different from Unix; like TOPS-20, it was more a shared address s= pace. I don't remember details, but I do recall that a "logout&quo= t; call in a DCL script logged you out of the system.

<= div>Did Softway Systems make kernel changes? I know MSFT's original Pos= ix plan was to do it all in user-space.=C2=A0 WSL is a Ubuntu port, so if S= oftway had kernel changes, I could see how that made things simpler.


On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 12:05 PM Paul Winalski <paul.winalski@gmail.com> = wrote:
Last week there was a bit of discussion ab= out the different shells
that would eventually lead to srb writing the shell that took his name
and the command syntax and semantics that most modern shells use
today.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Some of you may remember, VMS had a command interpreter<= br> called DCL (Digital Command language), part of an attempt to make
command syntax uniform across DEC's different operating systems
(TOPS-20 also used DCL).=C2=A0 As DEC started to recognize the value of the=
Unix marketplace, a project was born in DEC's Commercial Languages and<= br> Tools group to bring the Unix Bourne shell to VMS and to sell it as a
product they called DEC Shell.

I had been part of that effort and one of the issues we had to solve
is providing formal UNIX pipe semantics.=C2=A0 They of course needed to
somehow implement UNIX style process pipelines.=C2=A0 VMS from the
beginning has had an interprocess communications pseudo-device called
the mailbox that can be written to and read from via the usual I/O
mechanism (the QIO system service).=C2=A0 A large problem with them is that=
it is not possible to detect the "broken pipe" condition with a mailbox and that feature deficiency made them unsuitable for use with
DEC Shell.=C2=A0 So the team had me write a new device driver, based
closely on the mailbox driver, but that could detect broken pipes
lines UNIX-style.

Shortly after I finished the VMS pipe driver, the team at DECwest had
started work on the MICA project, which was Dave Culter's proposed OS unification.=C2=A0 Dave's team had developed a machine architecture cal= led
PRISM (Proposed RISC Machine) to be the VAX follow-on.=C2=A0 For forward compatibility purposes, PRISM would have to support both Ultrix and
VMS.=C2=A0 Dave and team had already written a microkernel-based,
lightweight OS for VAX called VAXeln that was intended for real-time
applications.=C2=A0 His new idea was to have a MACH-like microkernel OS
which he called MICA and then to put three user mode personality
modules on top of that:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 P.VMS, implementing the VMS system services and ABI
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 P.Ultrix, implementing the Unix=C2=A0 system calls and ABI =C2=A0 =C2=A0 P.TBD, a new OS API and ABI intended to supersede VMS

So I wrote the attached "why pipes" memo to explain to Cutler'= ;s team
why it was important to implement pipes natively in P.TBD if they
wanted that OS to be a viable follow-on to VMS and Ultrix.

In the end, Dick Sites's 64-bit RISC machine architecture proposal,
which was called Alpha, won out over PRISM. Cutler and a bunch of his
DECwest engineering team went off to Microsoft.=C2=A0 Dave's idea of a<= br> microkernel-based OS with multiple personalities of course saw the
light of day originally as NT OS/2, but because of the idea of
multiple personalities, when Microsoft and IBM divorced Dave was able
to quickly pivot to the now infamous Win32 personality, as what would
be called Windows NT.=C2=A0 It was also easy for Softway Systems to later complete the NT POSIX layer for their Interix product, which now a few
generations later is called WSL by Microsoft.

-Paul W.
--
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
--
Sent from a handheld expect more typos t= han usual
--00000000000030e4ca05d92f6d9d--